Laptop, All in One, or Desktop for making music

[Nicko]

I'll shortly be upgrading from my existing All in One PC which is a few years old and is running out of puff when using VSTs.  I'll have to upgrade from Cubase 7 as it doesn't run on Win 10 or 11 - I'll probably stick with Cubase.

 

The new space for the unit isn't huge and a space saving solution would be preferred, but isn't essential so I've been looking at Laptops, AIO and Small Form Factor PCs.

 

I can get something with 16GB RAM, 10 core i5 and min 1TB SSD laptop or all in one, but the clock speeds seems slow being laptop processor (1.3 GHz but 4.5 GHz turbo), and the choice of laptops is a bit restricted because a lot have limited numbers of USBs.   I do have a number of external drives I could use for storing projects once completed.

 

For a similar budget I can get an 8L SFF with a similar spec - the big advantage being it comes with 500GB SSD plus 1TB SDD and the clock speeds are higher (2,4GHz) but 8 core rather than 10 so similar turbo boost speeds.  I would, of course have to buy a monitor separately so it works out a bit more expensive and takes up more space (although I might be able to blag one as my wife is retiring and has a work monitor which they may or may not want back).

 

The question is slower clock speed with more cores and convenience or higher clock speed and fewer cores or is the turbo boost speed the defining performance factor?   Or does the dual drive trump the processor?

[Nicko]

I should say that the budget is around £1000 and is more matrimonial than financial.  I could spend more if necessary.

[2pods]

Scan Computers have both an excellent reputation for building audio computers, and a Black Friday Sale on.

 

I have both a desktop and a laptop from them, and while they were over your budget, I'm very pleased with them and their customer service.

I've seen some really good setups there for less.

 

SSDs have come right down, so if you go the single drive route, you can replace the original with a larger version, buy a small interface for a couple of quid, and use it for an external.

 

 

[BigRedX]

Last time I looked at Windows machine specs, laptops, all-in-ones and the small desktops were all pretty much the same inside the cases for a given processor. A desktop machine might have room for more RAM and a PCI slot or two but that's it.

 

Also unless you are running multiple instances of huge sample library instruments along with a convolution reverb on every channel any modern PC should be able to cope with the demands the typical DAW throws at it.

 

Also don't assume that just because a particular model sports more USB sockets, it actually has more USB buses and therefore won't have any benefits (and may actually be worse than a good quality powered USB hub). Also remember that both the laptop and the all-in-one will have lots of "hidden" built-in devices already on the USB bus(es). Mac OS has a handy utility built in which allows you to see exactly how the hardware is configured, the spec of each USB bus and which sockets are on which bus (and what built-in devices are also on the bus). Is there something similar for Windows?

 

I personally wouldn't buy a laptop unless portability is essential, as you generally get more performance for the same price when the manufacturer is not concentrating on fitting everything into the smallest and lightest form factor. Remember also that All-in-ones are essentially laptops with a bigger screen and limited portability.

[Nicko]

21 minutes ago, 2pods said:

Scan Computers have both an excellent reputation for building audio computers, and a Black Friday Sale on.

 

I have both a desktop and a laptop from them, and while they were over your budget, I'm very pleased with them and their customer service.

I've seen some really good setups there for less.

 

SSDs have come right down, so if you go the single drive route, you can replace the original with a larger version, buy a small interface for a couple of quid, and use it for an external.

 

 

Actually they have some interesting looking deals on laptops that would be within budget - though not specifically listed under the music laptops.

[Nicko]

21 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Last time I looked at Windows machine specs, laptops, all-in-ones and the small desktops were all pretty much the same inside the cases for a given processor. A desktop machine might have room for more RAM and a PCI slot or two but that's it.

 

Also unless you are running multiple instances of huge sample library instruments along with a convolution reverb on every channel any modern PC should be able to cope with the demands the typical DAW throws at it.

 

Also don't assume that just because a particular model sports more USB sockets, it actually has more USB buses and therefore won't have any benefits (and may actually be worse than a good quality powered USB hub). Also remember that both the laptop and the all-in-one will have lots of "hidden" built-in devices already on the USB bus(es). Mac OS has a handy utility built in which allows you to see exactly how the hardware is configured, the spec of each USB bus and which sockets are on which bus (and what built-in devices are also on the bus). Is there something similar for Windows?

 

I personally wouldn't buy a laptop unless portability is essential, as you generally get more performance for the same price when the manufacturer is not concentrating on fitting everything into the smallest and lightest form factor. Remember also that All-in-ones are essentially laptops with a bigger screen and limited portability.

Thanks

 

I'm sort of aware of the USB bus thing, but if buying off the shelf no one seems to specify what USB busses are fitted only the external connectivity.  I'm assuming though that USB 3 will be on a different bus to USB 2.  I'm only really needing:

 

One for interface

One for Midi keyboard (there is no midi on the interface)

One for storage external drive

Mouse and keyboard if not Laptop (wired or wireless)

And anything else I might want to plug in when doing something other than music

[2pods]

If you are considering Scan, please consider choosing one they've specc-ed for Audio.

It takes the pain out of making sure nothing is contributing Latency to your audio.

They're usually quieter (can use mics) etc.

 

Have a word with them. They're very helpful.

 

I have no affiliation with Scan.

I just love the systems and help I've had over the years from them.

[BigRedX]

41 minutes ago, Nicko said:

Thanks

 

I'm sort of aware of the USB bus thing, but if buying off the shelf no one seems to specify what USB busses are fitted only the external connectivity.  I'm assuming though that USB 3 will be on a different bus to USB 2.  I'm only really needing:

 

One for interface

One for Midi keyboard (there is no midi on the interface)

One for storage external drive

Mouse and keyboard if not Laptop (wired or wireless)

And anything else I might want to plug in when doing something other than music

What is the external drive for? Audio or archival/backup?

 

Going wireless for the keyboard and mouse doesn't spare you any USB bandwidth as the Bluetooth adaptor for them will be on one of the USB buses.

 

And yes USB 2 and 3 should be on separate buses.

[Nicko]

1 hour ago, 2pods said:

If you are considering Scan, please consider choosing one they've specc-ed for Audio.

It takes the pain out of making sure nothing is contributing Latency to your audio.

They're usually quieter (can use mics) etc.

 

Have a word with them. They're very helpful.

 

I have no affiliation with Scan.

I just love the systems and help I've had over the years from them.

I take your point but I'm currently using an off the shelf AIO without too many problems on latency.  They currently only have standard large case towers for audio on their website.  That isn't an option even if they weren't 50% above budget and if I go desktop it really has to be small form. 

 

I might speak to them about whether one of the non audio laptops would be suitable.  Really appreciate the recommendation as from teh website they clearly know what they're doing.

 

Edit: Just found the laptop options under custom configurations.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Nicko

[lemmywinks]

If you want higher base clock speeds then avoid CPUs with a U/UL suffix, they're the low voltage variants and are designed to conserve battery life, they will still boost and maintain a high clock though. A CPU with a G or H in the name will have a more familiar base clock, an i5-12600H or something like that.

 

Most full size laptops should have two M.2 PCIe bays, it's surprising how seldom this is mentioned in the spec though. One of the reasons I picked mine is because it had two nvme slots and one 2.5" sata.

Edited November 28, 2022 by lemmywinks

[Nicko]

47 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

What is the external drive for? Audio or archival/backup?

 

Going wireless for the keyboard and mouse doesn't spare you any USB bandwidth as the Bluetooth adaptor for them will be on one of the USB buses.

 

And yes USB 2 and 3 should be on separate buses.

External drive for archive and or backup.  

 

[lemmywinks]

Also not all of the cores will be performance cores, they will operate like ARM big/little with some cores designed for efficiency so that might not be the best metric to judge them by.

[Sibob]

Also just bear in mind that PC's are somewhat of a minefield with regards to their parts and those parts compatibility with recording gear. Places like Scan do their best to put together machines where all the composite parts work together nicely, but then add in more 3rd party music gear which require drivers to play nicely with the PC's hardware and it can become tough. It's why many people choose to work on Mac when it comes to Audio.

This isn't a "you should swap to Mac" post, more to make sure you look at what the PC is made up of, and whether that hardware/drivers are fully compatible without issue with the recording gear you have/are planning to use.

 

Si

[Nicko]

Yes, it's a minefield. I'm normally reasonably decisive but the more I look at it the more worried I am that I'm going to end up with the wrong thing.  I didn't even think about it when I bought the interface and already had a PC other than the basic system requirements, and it all worked out fine so I guess I was just lucky.

 

I'll basically be running a new version of Cubase, a 10 year old 1st Gen Focusrite 2i2 and an Alesis Midi Keyboard.  I suspect any info on the interface and keyboard compatibility that I can get will be pretty meaningless as the PC hardware is newer than the audio hardware.

[BigRedX]

If your interface and keyboard connect via USB the important phrase to look for is "class compliant". This means that they work with the USB drivers built in to the OS and therefore should be fine. However if they rely on having to install separate drivers you might be out of luck.

[Sibob]

13 hours ago, BigRedX said:

If your interface and keyboard connect via USB the important phrase to look for is "class compliant". This means that they work with the USB drivers built in to the OS and therefore should be fine. However if they rely on having to install separate drivers you might be out of luck.

 

Indeed, I know that all our USB products (Focusrite and Novation) are class compliant on Mac, but require USB drivers on Windows. I believe that is also a fairly reasonable rule of thumb for other audio gear too from what I've seen, although I do seem to remember seeing some gear being class compliant on Windows, but I think that might be the exception rather than the rule.

 

Si // Focusrite & Novation

[Nicko]

1 hour ago, Sibob said:

 

Indeed, I know that all our USB products (Focusrite and Novation) are class compliant on Mac, but require USB drivers on Windows. I believe that is also a fairly reasonable rule of thumb for other audio gear too from what I've seen, although I do seem to remember seeing some gear being class compliant on Windows, but I think that might be the exception rather than the rule.

 

Si // Focusrite & Novation

See, this is why BC is the best.😀

 

I'm currently using a Focusrite driver for the interface, and the keyboard is class compliant according to Alesis website.  Using an ASIO driver for the interface introduces quite a lot of latency.  I'll need to download a new driver for Windows as I'm going from Win 8 to Win 10 or 11, but there is a download option for that on your website.

 

Just spoken to Mrs Nicko regarding the Scan DAW Laptop option and when I mentioned the cost it was a short conversation.

[Sibob]

1 hour ago, Nicko said:

See, this is why BC is the best.😀

 

I'm currently using a Focusrite driver for the interface, and the keyboard is class compliant according to Alesis website.  Using an ASIO driver for the interface introduces quite a lot of latency.  I'll need to download a new driver for Windows as I'm going from Win 8 to Win 10 or 11, but there is a download option for that on your website.

 

Just spoken to Mrs Nicko regarding the Scan DAW Laptop option and when I mentioned the cost it was a short conversation.

 

Yeah First Gen Scarletts are fine on Windows 10 and 11 (as per our compatibility page here: https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/4403683106066-Focusrite-product-compatibility-with-Windows-11), and as you say, you'll just get that relevant driver from our Downloads page. So hopefully, you'll be all sorted

 

Si

[BigRedX]

OoI other than music what will your computer be used for?

 

It might just be worth looking at a second hand refurbished Mac from a reputable dealer.

 

My main computer (and the one I also use to earn my living doing graphic design) is a 12 year old MacPro that cost £650 (with 64GB RAM) a couple years ago. Apart form a couple of marks on the casing and the fact it didn't come with the original Apple packaging, it was in excellent condition when I bought it. It won't run the latest Mac OS (or the latest Adobe CC for that matter), but so far that hasn't been a problem. It has yet to run out of steam on any of my musical projects. I also have a 10 year old MacBook Pro that is used to run the backing for my bands' live set (that's up to 4 plugin instruments and 10 audio tracks simultaneously plus some external MIDI) which was £700 EoL from John Lewis 7 or 8 years ago. I've seen newer and better models for much less than this second hand.

[Nicko]

27 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

OoI other than music what will your computer be used for?

 

It might just be worth looking at a second hand refurbished Mac from a reputable dealer.

 

My main computer (and the one I also use to earn my living doing graphic design) is a 12 year old MacPro that cost £650 (with 64GB RAM) a couple years ago. Apart form a couple of marks on the casing and the fact it didn't come with the original Apple packaging, it was in excellent condition when I bought it. It won't run the latest Mac OS (or the latest Adobe CC for that matter), but so far that hasn't been a problem. It has yet to run out of steam on any of my musical projects. I also have a 10 year old MacBook Pro that is used to run the backing for my bands' live set (that's up to 4 plugin instruments and 10 audio tracks simultaneously plus some external MIDI) which was £700 EoL from John Lewis 7 or 8 years ago. I've seen newer and better models for much less than this second hand.

I don't plan to use the computer much at all for anything other than music.  I have a chromebook for internet and can use that for any simple documents and spreadsheets.  I have a digital music collection and wifi speakers so the music will need to be on the computer, it will work with Apple if I change the mobile app.  I've steered clear of Apple mainly because I don't understand the OS jargon as I do for PCs, and have always been under the impression that they are overpriced.  I'm not anti Apple as such but haven't ever been convinced that they are worth the premium.  I should say I don't think I've touched an Apple computer since I was at school in the early 80s so that was pre Macintosh.

 

 

[Leonard Smalls]

On 28/11/2022 at 09:53, Nicko said:

budget is around £1000

For £900 I got a refurbished HP audio workstation running windows 10 Pro from Bargain Hardware...

That included 48Gb RAM, 2 x Xeon 16 core 3.6GHz processors, a 1Tb SSD and a 3 TB disc drive.

 

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Before you commit your cash, consider this;

 

Useful lifespan of of any hardware is generally going to determined by how long it supports software updates, and there are two important things to remember

- Windows 10 will reach end of life in the near future (official cutoff is oct 2025) this won't stop your system working but 3rd party developers will abandon updates and certification, so if you buy a PC and it doesn't meet Windows 11 compatibility criteria that's the end of the road.

- Apple are already well into the transition from Intel based hardware and have not made concrete commitments on how long they will continue to support older intel based macs. If you go the Mac route, it doesn't make much sense to buy an intel based machine if you anticipate the need to buy/upgrade software.

 

I run an old PC for audio, and am definately not an Apple fanboy, but if my audio PC died, I would be looking at something like the M1 Mac mini as a replacement as the audio technology market has largely abandoned PCI and PCIe audio cards and the way that Apple implement audio/midi over USB is better than Windows, or the Linux variants I've experimented with. Thunderbolt is essentially PCIe down a cable, and opens more options when the time comes to replace your old audio interface.

 

I'm a Reaper fanboy, but looking at your situation upgrading Cubase is likely to cost about the same as buying Logic Pro outright (I don't believe that you have to ever pay for upgrades @BigRedXcan probably clarify) - IME migrating from one DAW to another isn't something to be unduly scared of unless the DAW you are using offers something essential to your creative process that just isn't available elsewhere.

 

 

Can't believe I'm shilling for apple here, but unless you already own an RME PCI/PCIe solution that needs a new PC to sit in, it doesn't make a lot of sense to stick with windows PC at this point in time for an audio workstation.

 

[Nicko]

15 hours ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

I'm a Reaper fanboy, but looking at your situation upgrading Cubase is likely to cost about the same as buying Logic Pro outright

I'm only looking at going from Cubase 7 LE (which was free with the interface and quite restricted functionality) to Cubase Elements which should more than satisfy my needs.  I did consider going down the Reaper route but I know some people really don't get on with it.  Most of the options I'm looking at are win 11, although I've seen a few that aren't and I think the point you make is something I hadn't considered.  I was veering toward this with 32GB and a 2nd drive, but may have to think again.

 

Ultimas 1600

 

 

[BigRedX]

Reaper is fine and very cost effective if you are just wanting to use your DAW as a digital multi-track recorder. As soon as you need to use any plug-in instruments, you will quickly outgrow what comes with Reaper and find yourself pending a lot of extra money, to get what you need. Most other DAWs come with plenty of good quality virtual instruments as standard. Also if your doing a lot of MIDI manipulation a DAW that has it roots in MIDI sequencing (such as Cubase) is a lot more versatile. Unfortunately MIDI in Reaper is still very much an afterthought.

[BigRedX]

15 hours ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

I'm a Reaper fanboy, but looking at your situation upgrading Cubase is likely to cost about the same as buying Logic Pro outright (I don't believe that you have to ever pay for upgrades @BigRedXcan probably clarify) - IME migrating from one DAW to another isn't something to be unduly scared of unless the DAW you are using offers something essential to your creative process that just isn't available elsewhere.

 

Logic is free for upgrades within a major version number. So all upgrades to Logic X (10), and we're currently on 10.7.something IIRC, are included in the price. And there have been some pretty significant improvements and additional features added between the first version of Logic X and the current one. When Logic 11 comes out it, if you want to get it, you will have to pay the full price for the new version. However at £199 it is IMO a complete steal. In the early days (I've been a user since V1.x) it cost about £400 just for the MIDI sequencing version. The Audio addition was an extra £300-400 and if you wanted the next paid upgrade (some of the x.5 versions were paid upgrades) that was another £200-300 for each of the MIDI and Audio sections.