jazzyvee Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 I hope you don't mind me putting this here as it is relavant to any instrument with an inlay, and has the same issue as me. I have a guitar with an elaborate dragon inlay on the fretboard. Unfortunately it contains a small amount of ivory in the dragon's teeth and claws. So based on the current UK regulations i'm not allowed to sell it or take it out of the country without receiving a heavy fine. Whilst i have no desire to sell in the near future that may change. So i'm looking for an inlay specialist who could remove the ivory and replace it with something that cannot be mistaken for ivory. My first thoughts was Jaydee, and i called but they are busy with their own instruments and not taking on any extra work. They recommended a violin maker, but again he is busy. So just putting the feelers out in case you know anyone i could contact. I would prefer someone in or near to Birmingham if possible as i won't want to send the guitar by post/courier. Any recommendations, greately received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2pods Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 Don't know (I know, not much help ), but I'd love to see pics of all the fretboard and the rest of guitar. Maybe get a mod to move your post to Repairs and Technical ? Someone there may be able to help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acebassmusic Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 I'm by no stretch of the imagination and expert on this but from what I've read a few questions have come up... How do you know it's ivory? Is the guitar documented as such? Does the documemtation say what type of ivory? I believe mammoth ivory is ok but elephant is a no-no. Do the documents say which bits are ivory eg claws / teeth / back scales? Just thinking of how you prove the bits you're planning on replacing to a customs person are OK and have the traceability to prove it. How do they identify ivory / no ivory / elephant / mammoth etc? Sorry.... I've probably just added to the problem with my questions 🤔😁 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fretmeister Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 How old is the ivory? If it's old enough I believe it is excluded from the rules. I'm sure Feline Guitars could help - they they are further south. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 If the bass fails whatever tests Customs use they won't just fine you they'll confiscate the bass. They might still do that with your new materials. If they don't know what has been used, they could demand you prove nothing on the bass is prohibited before they give it back. Can you do that? That'll be going into another country and coming back here. You could go down the path of getting a CITES permit for your bass. Without one it is a risk and the easiest solution is not to take the bass out of the country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulThePlug Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 Interesting... still need some crackin' pics of that full fretboard! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asingardenof Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 I can only recommend my old luthier Julyan Wallace in Penzance, currently off of BBC One's The Repair Shop (I knew him before he was TV famous though). Definitely worth a trip to Cornwall for, I reckon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 (edited) No fear to have, your instrument enters the exemptions list, if it was crafted before 1975. All you have to do is prove the date with, for example, an invoice. It comes from the legal text here: Which you can find here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/dealing-in-items-containing-ivory-or-made-of-ivory#exemptions-for-dealing-in-ivory Edited November 28, 2022 by Hellzero Because I'm an idiot 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 2 hours ago, 2pods said: Don't know (I know, not much help ), but I'd love to see pics of all the fretboard and the rest of guitar. Maybe get a mod to move your post to Repairs and Technical ? Someone there may be able to help Thanks for pointing that out i wasn't aware of that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 I think that Hellzero has the answer here! If you wish to have the ivory removed anyway (I would certainly understand this), I would contact the Jewellery School at Birmingham City University. The school has some brilliant jewellers and technicians and I suspect they’d be very willing to help. I can provide contacts by PM if useful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykesbass Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 He might not thank me for this, but our own @Andyjr1515 has done some intricate inlay work if you feel it needs to be removed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelDean Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 44 minutes ago, Hellzero said: No fear to have, your instrument enters the exemptions list, if it was not crafted before 1975, which I do believe. All you have to do is prove the date with, for example, an invoice. It comes from the legal text here: Which you can find here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/dealing-in-items-containing-ivory-or-made-of-ivory#exemptions-for-dealing-in-ivory Doesn't that state that musical instruments made before 1975 with less than 20% ivory are exempt. So, anything made after 1975 is not exempt? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 32 minutes ago, Mykesbass said: He might not thank me for this, but our own @Andyjr1515 has done some intricate inlay work if you feel it needs to be removed. I do thank you, @Mykesbass But I know when something is out of my league... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 1 hour ago, MichaelDean said: Doesn't that state that musical instruments made before 1975 with less than 20% ivory are exempt. So, anything made after 1975 is not exempt? Not enough coffee, you are right, I'll correct. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 The guy I took it too confirmed that since it can't be proven that the ivory has not come from an elephant it would be a restricted item. The details on the guitar is that the ivory was reclaimed from antique piano ivory so there is little way of me knowing 100% whether it is or not elephant ivory especially as the onus would be on me to prove it before I get handed a life changing fine if i was selling it. So whether it is or not I want to get it taken out to remove any doubt. And when Alembic did this for another customer they photographed the process of removal and gave the customer a sample of the material used in case of any issues further down the line. The inlay guy said one of the main difficulties is that the ivory is really close to the edge of the fretboard and also goes under the head of the frets, both of which would be difficult to remove without affecting the fretboard edges and the other inlays which lie along the fretboard. Not an easy or cheap job i'm sure. @2Pods I will see if I can find a decent full picture of it . Found the web page where it is show and you can see how close the claws are to the edge of the fingerboard, which happens to be ebony but I have no idea whether this makes the job easier or harder. http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_dragonmagic.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piers_Williamson Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 But my goodness, that is an incredibly beautiful guitar Jazzyvee! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 I was under the impression that Alembic kept very good records of where their various materials came from - especially those subject to restrictions, and IIRC have helped out at least one other member here who was having problems authenticating the provenance of MoP inlays on their bass when they were selling it. Have you been in touch with Alembic regarding this yet? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted November 28, 2022 Author Share Posted November 28, 2022 Yes, I have brought the issue up on their web site. Also a few years back when I was planning to go to an alembic meet and Mica advised me to check the CITES if I was planning to travel out of the UK with it since the ivory may be an issue. There is no doubt it is ivory as it states it on the web page link I posted earlier. So it's just a matter of finding a way to remove it without damaging the neck of the guitar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 25 minutes ago, jazzyvee said: Yes, I have brought the issue up on their web site. Also a few years back when I was planning to go to an alembic meet and Mica advised me to check the CITES if I was planning to travel out of the UK with it since the ivory may be an issue. There is no doubt it is ivory as it states it on the web page link I posted earlier. So it's just a matter of finding a way to remove it without damaging the neck of the guitar. If the ivory came from an antique piano (so pre-'75, and less than 20% of said piano...), could that not be justification, on the understanding that Alembic can provide proof of that..? It might be worth asking them. On the other hand, I have MOP-inlaid guitars, and there's no way whilst I'm alive anyone is going to be taking it out. It took me fifteen years to get it done on the Comittee, so... I'd rejoice in that splendid workmanship and let it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted November 28, 2022 Share Posted November 28, 2022 @jazzyvee : Did you buy that guitar by Alembic? And even if it's not the case, they made it and they put ivory on an instrument (yes, guitars are instruments) without documenting it and making sure the owner won't have any trouble !?! Is this stupidity and non sense a remain of the abuse of, back in the day, legal substances? It's their business to get you out of trouble, not yours! Being so childish and totally irresponsible is simply amazing. 😳 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted November 29, 2022 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 I see your point, though i did not buy it from alembic, it was from the original owner via a commission sale. But in any case alembic export under license from the US Fish and Wildlife department so would have to declare any ivory or risk prosecution if they were going to export out of the USA. However since they didn't export it, i don't think they have any responsibility to do that for me. Also my understanding of the HMRC information that it was only when the law changed in the UK recently that it became illegal for it to be sold or or shipped out of the country, unless i can prove the ivory does not come from an elephant. Previous to that i would have needed to get a permit. I doubt that alembic would be able to tell me what ivory it is since it was reclaimed from a vintage piano. The reality is, if i can't get it replaced, it just stays with me and maybe i can pass it on to a conservatoire in a will or have it buried or cremated with me. 🙂. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzyvee Posted November 29, 2022 Author Share Posted November 29, 2022 18 hours ago, asingardenof said: I can only recommend my old luthier Julyan Wallace in Penzance, currently off of BBC One's The Repair Shop (I knew him before he was TV famous though). Definitely worth a trip to Cornwall for, I reckon. i just got to his web site and will call him today thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 Check this @jazzyvee, it might have the answer you're looking for: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/dealing-in-items-containing-ivory-or-made-of-ivory#what-you-can-do-with-ivory-that-is-not-exempt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 When was this guitar built by Alembic? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellzero Posted November 29, 2022 Share Posted November 29, 2022 According to the web page link you provided, the guitar was made in October 2002, so if the guitar has been sold in the same state Alembic wasn't obliged to have any certification of the origin of the ivory, but should be prepared to provide appropriate documentation to the Service, if asked. And by the way, the ivory ban took place in the USA on January 18, 1990... So this is the time for Alembic to provide you the appropriate documentation as it left the state where it was built, and even the land. In this case, the maximum fine of £250,000 or 5 years’ imprisonment is for them, not for you. More about the subject here: https://www.akti.org/education/the-ivory-ban/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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