Dead Note on a Double Bass?

[zvirus]

Hi,

 

 I have spent quite a lot of time for research and found nothing which is really strange...

 

 Most people talk about Wolf Note/s on a Cello or DB which is opposite what I have on my DB. G#, A, A# on G string first position the sound has no overtones and fades away quickly same way as on lets say Jazz Bass G string 5-7 Fret (C, C#,D) - well known problem.

 

 What is going on and why I could not find anything regarding this "issue"?

 

Here it is sound sample starting with open G (444Hz)

 

 

 

 G#, A, A# on a D string is .. well, not bad.

 Put brand new Spirocores Light and The problem still exist. Well only first position G#-A#

 

Its a hybrid Hora (Romanian double bass from Thomann)

 

Thanks for any input/s

 

Tomas

Edited December 15, 2022 by zvirus

[pete.young]

Is the sound post set up properly and in the right place?

[zvirus]

11 hours ago, pete.young said:

Is the sound post set up properly and in the right place?

Yes, that was first thing to fix after receiving bass. The post was around 20mm off to the bass side. Now its in "neutral" spot. The issue was there and still is there. Before I changed the strings and after I did it...

 

I do understand its all about wood properties and CHEAP craftsmanship but... I wonder why there is no single article on the web about the dead notes? Or maybe I demand too much from a cheapo DB?

 

Its strange a bit as things are ok after hitting B, C and so on on that G string and all the rest are singing quite good as for cheapo DB...

Edited December 16, 2022 by zvirus

[Beedster]

I put it down the the vagaries of wood, of construction, of strings and of the ear/brain complex (don't underestimate the degree to which the latter plays a role, once we hear a problem we are far more likely to keep hearing it and sometimes even exaggerate it). I've never had a DB that didn't have a few dead spots, hours of experimentation moved them around a little or reduced them a little, but now I simply accept that if B on the G string doesn't sing I use 3rd position on the D. But I'm guessing you already knew most of this so probably not much help really   

[zvirus]

27 minutes ago, Beedster said:

I put it down the the vagaries of wood, of construction, of strings and of the ear/brain complex (don't underestimate the degree to which the latter plays a role, once we hear a problem we are far more likely to keep hearing it and sometimes even exaggerate it). I've never had a DB that didn't have a few dead spots, hours of experimentation moved them around a little or reduced them a little, but now I simply accept that if B on the G string doesn't sing I use 3rd position on the D. But I'm guessing you already knew most of this so probably not much help really   

Thanks! Great input!!!!👍

 

I agree. I was just looking for some.. confirmation that Im mentally rather stable...

So nothing to worry especially I did not spend £2000-3000. I could be angry spending that kind of money...

 

Anyway... mystery solved!

[JoeEvans]

I've been told that some professionals are able to minimise dead spots using set-up techniques - detailed tweaks to bridge, soundpost, tailpiece and attachment, end pin etc. The dead spot on a previous bass of mine (open A string) improved noticeably when I replaced the rather long, slim end pin with a wooden pin from Ben Bastin.

[Beedster]

15 minutes ago, JoeEvans said:

I've been told that some professionals are able to minimise dead spots using set-up techniques - detailed tweaks to bridge, soundpost, tailpiece and attachment, end pin etc. The dead spot on a previous bass of mine (open A string) improved noticeably when I replaced the rather long, slim end pin with a wooden pin from Ben Bastin.

 

Of course, change any part of the system and there's a chance you'll change one or more tonal aspects of the instrument - i swapped an ebony bridge for a graphite bridge and it sounded like a different bass at first - but those changes are not always improvements (much like a Badass Bridge on a Precision), and they don't always solve inherent characteristics of the instrument. 

[petebassist]

22 hours ago, zvirus said:

 I have spent quite a lot of time for research and found nothing which is really strange...

 

 Most people talk about Wolf Note/s on a Cello or DB which is opposite what I have on my DB. G#, A, A# on G string first position the sound has no overtones and fades away quickly same way as on lets say Jazz Bass G string 5-7 Fret (C, C#,D) - well known problem.

 

 What is going on and why I could not find anything regarding this "issue"?

 

Here it is sound sample starting with open G (444Hz)

Where's the dead note? Sounds OK to me.

Also, do you also hear it if you record it acoustically from a few feet away or other end of the room? Like just on a phone or something. 

[Beedster]

32 minutes ago, petebassist said:

Where's the dead note? Sounds OK to me.

Also, do you also hear it if you record it acoustically from a few feet away or other end of the room? Like just on a phone or something. 

I can hear the change in tone and sustain, but yes questions where it was recorded are spot on, as the player you can hear and feel things the audience don't 👍

[petebassist]

Another thing to check - that the feet of the bridge are flat against the body, there's usually a 90 degree angle between the underside of the bridge (which is flat, rather than sloped on the top) and the bass body.

And the bridge is placed in the 'normal' position, i.e. a horizontal line going through the middle of the bridge lines up with the two little nicks in the middle of the F hole. 

[zvirus]

5 hours ago, JoeEvans said:

I've been told that some professionals are able to minimise dead spots using set-up techniques - detailed tweaks to bridge, soundpost, tailpiece and attachment, end pin etc. The dead spot on a previous bass of mine (open A string) improved noticeably when I replaced the rather long, slim end pin with a wooden pin from Ben Bastin.

Thanks for the input!

Here is a (sloppy) Bb blues where I use quite a lot G, G#, A and more...

 

I have to say now that its not bad (sound - not the player) and I like it and will live with it!

[zvirus]

4 hours ago, Beedster said:

I can hear the change in tone and sustain, but yes questions where it was recorded are spot on, as the player you can hear and feel things the audience don't 👍

It is not so obvious when I play in a living room... little obvious when play in my "studio" 2x3m...

[zvirus]

3 hours ago, petebassist said:

Another thing to check - that the feet of the bridge are flat against the body, there's usually a 90 degree angle between the underside of the bridge (which is flat, rather than sloped on the top) and the bass body.

And the bridge is placed in the 'normal' position, i.e. a horizontal line going through the middle of the bridge lines up with the two little nicks in the middle of the F hole. 

Another great input. Must say that the "boys" @thomann fitted the bridge VERY well and fits the body nice and cosy. And the bridge is where should be as shown on that cartoon!

Cheers!

Tomas

[zvirus]

4 hours ago, Beedster said:

I can hear the change in tone and sustain, but yes questions where it was recorded are spot on, as the player you can hear and feel things the audience don't 👍

My studio 2x3m plus C1000S about 40cm away from sound hole.

[zvirus]

Hi,

 

 Ive got some updates on the subject...

 

 Recently Rod Patterson - our local (hero) Double Bass player paid me a visit and suggested to thin/shave off the bridge to reduce its weight and eliminate BULKY look...

 I managed to reduce its weight by 10g from 107g to 97g

 

 And now the "dead" G string in first position is back to life!

Cheerio!

 

[3below]

An Interesting and useful piece of knowledge

[JoeEvans]

8 hours ago, zvirus said:

Hi,

 

 Ive got some updates on the subject...

 

 Recently Rod Patterson - our local (hero) Double Bass player paid me a visit and suggested to thin/shave off the bridge to reduce its weight and eliminate BULKY look...

 I managed to reduce its weight by 10g from 107g to 97g

 

 And now the "dead" G string in first position is back to life!

Cheerio!

 

How thin did you make the bridge at the top? 

[zvirus]

Looks like 4mm maybe 5mm

[JoeEvans]

Thanks! I reduced my bridge a little recently, was thinking of going further. I also fitted a home made low mass tailpiece which I posted about here recently, that made a huge difference to the tone, so I'm thinking that removing weight connected to the strings is a good thing.