New Build: BC 112mk3

[chyc]

40 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

The BC 112 mk 3 is essentially a proper FRFR bass speaker. The bass driver and wooden cab will handle bass better than almost any PA speaker and the frequency response has no nasty peaks or troughs. That makes it very different in it's sound from most bass speakers which will have a peak in the upper mids which is in the top end of a bass. You would need to re-eq for this speaker in all probability. I suspected the 110T would be good for DB, the extra volume and extra low frequencies are going to lead you potential feedback resonance problems but the gentle early roll off of the 110 would help with that. Try rolling back the bass on your amp with the Mk3 and see how that sounds.

 

I will do this. I don't have the two cabinets side by side at the moment to compare. I've just played a double bass through it and I have to say it did sound rather good. Would people like sound samples of this, the BC110T, a GSS 06B400 MKD and an Acoustic Image Coda R? Nothing scientific, just a fun shootout of all my cabinets.

 

40 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

 

We've all got very used to the coloured sound of our normal bass speakers and when you first listen to the clean sound of your bass through a flat response speaker it is somewhat underwhelming at first. You will really miss the artificial colour of a traditional bass speaker. Then  when you hear the extra details you'll start thinking 'OK yeah I get that' but you will still miss what you have lost.

 

The muted highs were from playing music through the cabinets from my phone. Are traditional (inexpensive) hi-fi cabinets scoop voiced? My wife can hear a subtle treble rolloff as well so I don't think it's just me. A nudge with the EQ fixes things so it's not critical by any means, and I don't even need to do that when playing bass, which ultimately is all I care about.

 

These cabinets are going to be played and worn in. I have a wedding in March and depending on how the chips fall I may be using the BC110Ts as PA tops for a ceilidh band! The BC112 will then take double bass duty

 

40 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

 

On the other hand the 110T is a little gem, I've not fallen out of love with mine and it is such a practical solution for my needs so long s ultimate volume is not the issue. I still use it a lot.

It is indeed. To have a pair demolish a big band in an acoustically compromised venue for me shows just how potent they are. I probably could have got away with a single BC112, but I would have needed a bigger amp than the "100W" GSS Bullet

 

 

[chyc]

10 hours ago, BlueMoon said:

I have the same issue with the P Audio horn being out of stock, seemingly everywhere. @chyc which horn did you eventually use?

 

Nice work overall and thanks for sharing your experiences.

Thanks @BlueMoon for your kind words.

 

I bought the Celestion Horn, available at Lean Business in the UK. Whether they ship to the continent I do not know sadly.

[Phil Starr]

40 minutes ago, chyc said:

 

The muted highs were from playing music through the cabinets from my phone.

What amp were you using?  We did a lot of testing with recorded music and i didn't notice a veiled sound particularly. I have had some issues though with phones running into a mono input. I've tried these at home with my hi-fi, they don't sound as good as my hi-fi speakers but of course they aren't designed for that but the Silverstones  give my RCF PA speakers a run for their money.

 

That horn (the Celestion No Bell) is the best horn we have found for this size of driver to date, it is more expensive than the recommended one and slightly heavier, the other horn to look at is the B&C ME10 if you want something as cheap as the P-Audio.

[JohnDaBass]

10 hours ago, chyc said:

Thanks @BlueMoon for your kind words.

 

I bought the Celestion Horn, available at Lean Business in the UK. Whether they ship to the continent I do not know sadly.

That Celestion horn looks remarkably like the horn used in the production version of the LFSys Silverstone cabinet.

Could you and your wife's perception of the treble roll off be something to do with the crossover?

 

[chyc]

9 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

What amp were you using?  We did a lot of testing with recorded music and i didn't notice a veiled sound particularly. I have had some issues though with phones running into a mono input. I've tried these at home with my hi-fi, they don't sound as good as my hi-fi speakers but of course they aren't designed for that but the Silverstones  give my RCF PA speakers a run for their money.

 

I think this must be it: I've used both phones into a mono input, and CDs from my Denon hi-fi. Perfectly pleasant to listen to all genres except classical, but I'd prefer the Denon bookshelf speakers given the choice. I have very little frames of reference you see, so maybe I'm comparing the wrong things. I have the GSS 06B400MKD which sound absolutely amazing for hifi, but the speakers in those are coaxial studio monitors. The coax isn't a gimmick, it really makes a difference when you're sitting right next to your speakers.

 

9 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

That horn (the Celestion No Bell) is the best horn we have found for this size of driver to date, it is more expensive than the recommended one and slightly heavier, the other horn to look at is the B&C ME10 if you want something as cheap as the P-Audio.

 

I see that the P-Audio is out of stock again. It's a popular horn clearly.

 

5 minutes ago, JohnDaBass said:

Could you and your wife's perception of the treble roll off be something to do with the crossover?

 

Unlikely as that is a part that I didn't make!

 

For the BC110T I swapped out the woofer for one that is 3dB more sensitive, so the less sensitive highs was probably my fault. I know enough electronics to realize that it's the resistor that causes attenuation so I shorted the resistor in the design. It is much much better now because of that, but I wasn't expecting to do it here, but given the above it may just be me. I'll report back when the cabinet has done a gig, or when I've practised a few hours through it. I'm buoyed that I plugged in a double bass and no knob twiddling needed it sounded fantastic and rather loud (or so my children say, I was enjoying myself too much at the time to notice.)

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, chyc said:

I see that the P-Audio is out of stock again.

I'm not sure whether we will see it again, the only place I ever saw P-Audio was Blue Aran so if they aren't importing them this could be a permanent issue. The B&C is a reasonable substitute. 

 

It's a problem with these designs that they have a shelf life. Even Celestion bring out new models. Eminence seem to have the most stable range but until recently US speakers were more expensive than the European produced ones and Far East production like P-audio is frequently changing. That's one reason why I've stopped specifying the pre made tuning ports. Building materials have to fit standard fittings so are reliably sized and black waste water pipes are easy to find.

If I ever get time I want to revisit these designs

Edited February 15, 2023 by Phil Starr

[stevie]

The P.Audio horn has been problematic for a while. Blue Aran appear to have distribution rights for Europe and their stockholdings are not particularly reliable. I think this is because they have to import a container at a time, which means just once or twice a year. Current availability is July.

 

It's a shame because it's a really nice, cheap horn, comparable with the more expensive Faital Pro horn that Barefaced uses. For a comparison, <https://www.diy-hifi-forum.eu/forum/showthread.php?17872-Faital-STH-100-vs-P-Audio-PH-170-am-BMS-4524>. [In German, use Google translate]. Fitting an alternative means changing the crossover, as a crossover designed specifically for the P-170 won't work properly with anything else. The Celestion horn, for example, is physically deeper and also louder, which means that the phase will be wrong at the crossover point and it will sound harsh. That's also what I'm hearing from the video.

[chyc]

6 hours ago, stevie said:

Fitting an alternative means changing the crossover, as a crossover designed specifically for the P-170 won't work properly with anything else. The Celestion horn, for example, is physically deeper and also louder, which means that the phase will be wrong at the crossover point and it will sound harsh.

Yeah, sucks to spend more on something that doesn't fit the requirements. The cutouts are different so it's not like I can swap it when it does come back in stock, and the horn's weight is noticeable when holding it on its own: it's a chunky monkey.

 

Haven't been able to play through it today as the cabinet is being painted. I've built a frame for a cloth grille. What kind of fabric is suitable? I read somewhere that mosquito netting is good but I cannot find it now that I'm searching.

 

 

 

[Phil Starr]

This is the best place I've found so far Grillcloth - KLDGuitar tube guitar amp amp kits grill cloth and vinyl tolex http://www.kldguitar.com/Home/SearchBranch?keyword=Grillcloth I did track down the factory that makes them too but can't find the link. You can get most of these on Ebay or there are shops that stock some of the grille fabric. A lot of the stuff on Ebay /Amazon is for domestic/hi fi speakers and isn't tough enough.

 

although the shop is in China I've had no problems with them

[Phil Starr]

https://flyscreen.com/The Flyscreen Company – Fly Screens and Insect Screens for Doors and Windows

Edited February 16, 2023 by Phil Starr

[chyc]

OK, I've done some critical listening, and I don't think I can pass judgement on the design as I don't think I've made it right. I played a 30Hz tone at a fair volume and there were definitely artefacts that shouldn't be there. I ran my ear along all the seams and couldn't detect any leaking so the turbulence may well be something inside the cabinet.

 

That I can probably live with. What I cannot is there is a pronounced hump in the upper bass frequencies, probably between 100-400Hz. It may be the room I'm playing it in, but I played my Acoustic Image side by side and that was a much flatter response.

 

This cabinet was intended to be the prototype using cheap wood. I'm still bitterly disappointed that I didn't nail it, but I'm a little buoyed that I'll be able to correct the niggling errors that I made along the way with a second one. If I'm slow enough the horn may well come back in stock!

[chyc]

OK, update time. Won't bore you with details, but the cabinet has only just arrived at home for me to blast through. The harsh resonant frequency is gone which makes me conclude it's either been bashed into shape in transit, or the previous location had some pretty nasty standing waves.

 

I'm going to compare this with the BC110T because that's the most similar cabinet I have.

 

 

Some caveats out the way

1. Neither of these cabinets is built to spec. The mk3 I couldn't find the horn so had to swap it out. The BC110T I swapped the woofer, because why not! I then tinkered with the crossover, again because why not!
2. I am not a critical listener. I'm fairly sure I could enjoy music played through tin cans and a wet string.

So, with that out the way, here's me listening through a Denon HiFi in the living room. Room is around 8' floor to ceiling and fairly stuffed with, erm stuff.

 

 

If you swap the cable back and forth, it's immediately apparent, with the EQs set flat, that the 12" woofer allows the bc112 to exude an authoritative bass that isn't there in the 10". Bear in mind I could (and did!) buy two 10" speakers for the price of the one 12", but I played the comparison to my wife and I believe her words were "wow, where's the bass gone?" when I made the switch. For a bass cabinet that's rather a big deal in my opinion, but see my previous comments in this thread about playing upright bass.

 

For the treble side, I will treat this comparison with extreme caution as this is where the changes I made to the designs come into effect. For my cabinets at least the BC112 has pleasant highs, albeit a bit veiled towards the upper end. It's very similar to my ancient Sennheiser HD580s in that regard. The BC110 is much crisper by comparison, perhaps a little too pronounced in absolute terms, although that may have been me tinkering too much. I'm too lazy to go back and revert the crossover changes I made so it can't be that bad though. For my wife, she liked the BC112, but felt it lacked something, She couldn't put her finger on it, but whatever that something was was present in the BC110. For the record, this was at pleasant living room listening volumes rather than face melting volumes.

 

Absolute volume? No idea. I've played a pair of BC110s in an absolutely worst case scenario venue and it cruised through a jazz big band. I haven't gigged the BC112. Both cabinets exceed the capability of what I can play at home sensibly.

 

For practising, I have to say that neither is appropriate: they're definitely for taking on the road. When my children are tucked up in bed upstairs I want my bass cabinet to be about 3 feet from me. At that distance, both cabinets are too big, and also for both cabinets, the two sound sources of the woofer and the tweeter are distinct, which for me is a distraction. I'd say that for this task I have a fantastic cabinet in the shape of the GSS06B400MKD, containing a co-axial speaker. I've even done gigs with this. Marvellous cabinet.

 

 

Anyway, back to the direct comparison. For convenience, the 10" scores highly. Not only is it much lighter, but its size makes it much more manoeuvrable round corners and through doors. I've put the BC110 on a bicycle pannier rack. I cannot do that with the BC112mk3. If I could build the BC110 again however I would absolutely put in the top circular handle that the BC112 has. That's so nice. The BC112 is my largest and heaviest cabinet, but I know it's a feather compared with some of the behemoths out there.

 

There are no conclusions to this ramble to be honest. I'm the happy owner of three cabinets (one BC112, two BC110), and a lot of sawdust. I'd probably still pick the BC110 over the BC112 for double bass. For electric, I'd probably pick the BC112 unless I was cycling.

 

If anyone has any questions I'm happy to answer honestly to the best of my ability. If anyone wants to play through them, I'm happy for that also.

 

Next steps? Probably another BC112 with the correct horn and nicer wood, if I can afford it. Sheesh wood is expensive now.

[3below]

4 minutes ago, chyc said:

Sheesh wood is expensive now.

Great review, and yes, wood is expensive now

[LukeFRC]

On 16/02/2023 at 17:56, Phil Starr said:

https://flyscreen.com/The Flyscreen Company – Fly Screens and Insect Screens for Doors and Windows

fly cloth is what I used on my BCCab - looks ok to me (the odd stripes are camera artifacts I think )
 

[Phil Starr]

That flyscreen looks really good Luke the piping makes it a professional looking finish.

 

[Phil Starr]

On 19/03/2023 at 22:13, chyc said:

OK, update time. Won't bore you with details, but the cabinet has only just arrived at home for me to blast through. The harsh resonant frequency is gone which makes me conclude it's either been bashed into shape in transit, or the previous location had some pretty nasty standing waves.

 

I'm going to compare this with the BC110T because that's the most similar cabinet I have.

 

 

Some caveats out the way

1. Neither of these cabinets is built to spec. The mk3 I couldn't find the horn so had to swap it out. The BC110T I swapped the woofer, because why not! I then tinkered with the crossover, again because why not!
2. I am not a critical listener. I'm fairly sure I could enjoy music played through tin cans and a wet string.

So, with that out the way, here's me listening through a Denon HiFi in the living room. Room is around 8' floor to ceiling and fairly stuffed with, erm stuff.

 

 

If you swap the cable back and forth, it's immediately apparent, with the EQs set flat, that the 12" woofer allows the bc112 to exude an authoritative bass that isn't there in the 10". Bear in mind I could (and did!) buy two 10" speakers for the price of the one 12", but I played the comparison to my wife and I believe her words were "wow, where's the bass gone?" when I made the switch. For a bass cabinet that's rather a big deal in my opinion, but see my previous comments in this thread about playing upright bass.

 

For the treble side, I will treat this comparison with extreme caution as this is where the changes I made to the designs come into effect. For my cabinets at least the BC112 has pleasant highs, albeit a bit veiled towards the upper end. It's very similar to my ancient Sennheiser HD580s in that regard. The BC110 is much crisper by comparison, perhaps a little too pronounced in absolute terms, although that may have been me tinkering too much. I'm too lazy to go back and revert the crossover changes I made so it can't be that bad though. For my wife, she liked the BC112, but felt it lacked something, She couldn't put her finger on it, but whatever that something was was present in the BC110. For the record, this was at pleasant living room listening volumes rather than face melting volumes.

 

Absolute volume? No idea. I've played a pair of BC110s in an absolutely worst case scenario venue and it cruised through a jazz big band. I haven't gigged the BC112. Both cabinets exceed the capability of what I can play at home sensibly.

 

For practising, I have to say that neither is appropriate: they're definitely for taking on the road. When my children are tucked up in bed upstairs I want my bass cabinet to be about 3 feet from me. At that distance, both cabinets are too big, and also for both cabinets, the two sound sources of the woofer and the tweeter are distinct, which for me is a distraction. I'd say that for this task I have a fantastic cabinet in the shape of the GSS06B400MKD, containing a co-axial speaker. I've even done gigs with this. Marvellous cabinet.

 

 

Anyway, back to the direct comparison. For convenience, the 10" scores highly. Not only is it much lighter, but its size makes it much more manoeuvrable round corners and through doors. I've put the BC110 on a bicycle pannier rack. I cannot do that with the BC112mk3. If I could build the BC110 again however I would absolutely put in the top circular handle that the BC112 has. That's so nice. The BC112 is my largest and heaviest cabinet, but I know it's a feather compared with some of the behemoths out there.

 

There are no conclusions to this ramble to be honest. I'm the happy owner of three cabinets (one BC112, two BC110), and a lot of sawdust. I'd probably still pick the BC110 over the BC112 for double bass. For electric, I'd probably pick the BC112 unless I was cycling.

 

If anyone has any questions I'm happy to answer honestly to the best of my ability. If anyone wants to play through them, I'm happy for that also.

 

Next steps? Probably another BC112 with the correct horn and nicer wood, if I can afford it. Sheesh wood is expensive now.

Well done for completing both those and thanks for the review. I love that you have adapted both designs by the way, it was always our hope that there would be a mixture of people who would try our ‘recipes’ and people who would innovate.

 

I’d agree with your comparative comments on the 110 V the 112. I use the 110T a lot, it’s more than enough for practice and bass goes through our PA so it’s also enough for stage monitoring. For upright bass and for small venues the deep bass can be an embarrassment of riches so it’s often easier to get a good sound from a speaker like the 110T. That’s the problem with listening tests, as you go from one to another anything louder sounds subjectively ‘better’ so I completely identified with the where has the bass gone comment. 
 

I prefer the side handle on the 110T. I’m not very tall and the Mk 3 bangs against my knees when I carry it. That’s the joy of self build though, it won’t affect the performance so you can put the handle where you like.

 

I have to say it gives @stevie @Chienmortbb and I a great joy to see our cabs being built. I hope you inspire others to give it a go.

[chyc]

On 22/03/2023 at 10:40, Phil Starr said:

Well done for completing both those and thanks for the review. I love that you have adapted both designs by the way, it was always our hope that there would be a mixture of people who would try our ‘recipes’ and people who would innovate.

 

I’d agree with your comparative comments on the 110 V the 112. I use the 110T a lot, it’s more than enough for practice and bass goes through our PA so it’s also enough for stage monitoring. For upright bass and for small venues the deep bass can be an embarrassment of riches so it’s often easier to get a good sound from a speaker like the 110T. That’s the problem with listening tests, as you go from one to another anything louder sounds subjectively ‘better’ so I completely identified with the where has the bass gone comment. 
 

I prefer the side handle on the 110T. I’m not very tall and the Mk 3 bangs against my knees when I carry it. That’s the joy of self build though, it won’t affect the performance so you can put the handle where you like.

 

I have to say it gives @stevie @Chienmortbb and I a great joy to see our cabs being built. I hope you inspire others to give it a go.

 

It was all good fun. I'm probably all good for bass cabinets, but sadly I've got the itch now.

 

One thing I keep forgetting to mention is that I bought some BFM plans. For various reasons I decided to instead build the BC112, but I will say that these plans are full of tips, like how to do joins, and how to test for leaks. Purchasing the plans for the Simplexx 12, say, will give you a good set of mental tools to get you going with cabinet building so I would definitely recommend purchasing at least one.

[Chienmortbb]

On 22/03/2023 at 10:40, Phil Starr said:

Well done for completing both those and thanks for the review. I love that you have adapted both designs by the way, it was always our hope that there would be a mixture of people who would try our ‘recipes’ and people who would innovate.

 

I’d agree with your comparative comments on the 110 V the 112. I use the 110T a lot, it’s more than enough for practice and bass goes through our PA so it’s also enough for stage monitoring. For upright bass and for small venues the deep bass can be an embarrassment of riches so it’s often easier to get a good sound from a speaker like the 110T. That’s the problem with listening tests, as you go from one to another anything louder sounds subjectively ‘better’ so I completely identified with the where has the bass gone comment. 
 

I prefer the side handle on the 110T. I’m not very tall and the Mk 3 bangs against my knees when I carry it. That’s the joy of self build though, it won’t affect the performance so you can put the handle where you like.

 

I have to say it gives @stevie @Chienmortbb and I a great joy to see our cabs being built. I hope you inspire others to give it a go.

I should add that at well over 6ft, I find the centre handle fine. However I do appreciate side handles when putting a PA cab onto a speaker stand.

[Phil Starr]

4 hours ago, chyc said:

 

It was all good fun. I'm probably all good for bass cabinets, but sadly I've got the itch now.

 

One thing I keep forgetting to mention is that I bought some BFM plans. For various reasons I decided to instead build the BC112, but I will say that these plans are full of tips, like how to do joins, and how to test for leaks. Purchasing the plans for the Simplexx 12, say, will give you a good set of mental tools to get you going with cabinet building so I would definitely recommend purchasing at least one.

Like all itches you know you will scratch it, just not how soon

 

There's a lot of effort in writing these things up and it takes me a lot longer than building them. Now if you all paid me ...........