What has a professional bassist got, that I have not

[paul_5]

Just now, paul_5 said:

this. He was a puppet bassist who replaced the best musician in the Pistols - namely Glenn Matlock.

Malcolm McLaren fired Matlock because he liked the Beatles.

Want to know why 'Nevermind the Bollocks' sounds so beefy? Steve Jones (the guitarist) played all of the bass parts on the album as Sid was either too wasted or couldn't play them. Maybe both.

Jones only knew how to pay the guitar parts, so just played them on the bass instead which delivered a massive 'doubled' sound. 'Simon Ferocious' had no part in it.

[Dad3353]

2 hours ago, SH73 said:

I presume it's 1 2 3 4 then 1 2 3 4. 5...8?  Sort of. But I never think that way, I don't involve theory when I play, or notes. I just play if that makes sense.Had one drum lesson last year, the guy threw notes at me straight away. Never went back again. I more like show me how it's done and I do it, or self teach most times. 

 

No, not quite. I'll take the standard 'quarter note' (I call 'em crochets, but I'm old, so...), and count, as you said, as '1   2   3   4   ...'.  For eighth notes, I'd count '1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and ...'. Sixteenths become a bit more tricky, but the principle is the same, with 1 uh and uh 2 uh and uh 3 uh and uh  4 uh and uh ...'. Try it out at 60 bpm (so 1 2 3 4 at 1 second intervals...). Repeat, at the same tempo, still with the 1 2 3 4 at second intervals, but with the 'and' interjection. Once that's done, do the same with sixteenths (you may want to slow the metronome down a little at first, though; it's not that simple for the tongue and respiration...).
There, that's all there is to that. Next week: triplets and paradiddles... 

[Stub Mandrel]

The real question is probably "how do people make a living playing music? "

 

There are many ways and different skills/attributes depending on which way you go.

[TimR]

On 03/01/2023 at 20:33, bass_dinger said:

slapping, popping, thumping,

 

You may never be called to play like that. I haven't in 40 years of playing semi-professionally in pit, jazz, function and originals bands. 

 

I mean you'd never audition for a funk gig if you don't play funk music well, and if you liked playing funk music, then you'd be able to do those things. It's self fulfilling. 

 

Triplets are something that trips up a lot of people.

 

How are your 'internal' dynamics, that's not just playing loudly or softly for a whole bar, it's placing accents on individual notes and paying attention to note lengths. A quarter note can be played legato (sounds for the length of the quarter beat) or staccato (sounds very short). Muting is another essential technique that separates the amateur/beginner from the more advanced player. 

[dodge_bass]

39 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

You may never be called to play like that. I haven't in 40 years of playing semi-professionally in pit, jazz, function and originals bands. 

 

I mean you'd never audition for a funk gig if you don't play funk music well, and if you liked playing funk music, then you'd be able to do those things. It's self fulfilling. 

 

Triplets are something that trips up a lot of people.

 

How are your 'internal' dynamics, that's not just playing loudly or softly for a whole bar, it's placing accents on individual notes and paying attention to note lengths. A quarter note can be played legato (sounds for the length of the quarter beat) or staccato (sounds very short). Muting is another essential technique that separates the amateur/beginner from the more advanced player. 

Slightly tangentially - there’s been some really interesting posts from Ed Friedland recently about the role of a supporting bass player as opposed to a ‘superstar DJ’ bass player (all bells and whistles and looks great for 30secs on Instagram) and how important that is. Lots of food for thought about the differing roles of a bass player (and making money from it!). 

[SH73]

8 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

 

No, not quite. I'll take the standard 'quarter note' (I call 'em crochets, but I'm old, so...), and count, as you said, as '1   2   3   4   ...'.  For eighth notes, I'd count '1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and ...'. Sixteenths become a bit more tricky, but the principle is the same, with 1 uh and uh 2 uh and uh 3 uh and uh  4 uh and uh ...'. Try it out at 60 bpm (so 1 2 3 4 at 1 second intervals...). Repeat, at the same tempo, still with the 1 2 3 4 at second intervals, but with the 'and' interjection. Once that's done, do the same with sixteenths (you may want to slow the metronome down a little at first, though; it's not that simple for the tongue and respiration...).
There, that's all there is to that. Next week: triplets and paradiddles... 

I usually do quarter and eights, I find playing quarter notes harder at faster tempo. And with eights I can do what I call irregular beat with kick drum and use occasional triplets. Sorry Op for hijacking the thread. Maybe low level/ part time professional bassist reading music can do anything at short notice if they read music. But lots of professional rock starts can't read music. As far as I am concerned if your main income comes from playing or teaching bass, you're a professional?

[Stub Mandrel]

The best way to learn things like shuffle and triplets is to play along to modest tempo songs with clear simple basslines and focus on getting a good groove going.

 

Experience tells me that some people who rely solely on tab or notation have little 'feel' despite technical competence (commoner in keys players than bassists).

[Boodang]

15 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Hmmm. The estimable and worthy qualities outlined over the previous 4 pages of this thread are all well and good, but this fellow made a living out of playing the bass...

 

 

Yeah, but this guy was a giant @rsehole. Most people wouldn't even want to bump into him let alone work with him. 

[Dad3353]

15 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Hmmm. The estimable and worthy qualities outlined over the previous 4 pages of this thread are all well and good, but this fellow made a living out of playing the bass...

 

 

 

... and Adolf had a military career (of sorts...), for a while. None of the above is gospel; Luck and Life play a part, whatever ... 

[Franticsmurf]

On 03/01/2023 at 20:33, bass_dinger said:

So, what skills does a professional bassist (touring band, session musician, covers band player) have that I can aspire to.

One way to look at it is to turn the question around. Imagine your band has a prestigious gig coming up but one of the band members is unable to make it. You need a dep at short notice. What qualities are you going to look for?

 

IMO playing ability is just one of the skills. I'd want someone that I can get a vibe off while performing so that the gig is more than just a bunch of songs - so some ability to get on with people would be essential. I wouldn't mind them using notes to work from during a performance, but I wouldn't want them to be buried behind a music stand for the whole gig - I'd expect them to know the standards. And in return, I'd be expected to tell them of any changes to arrangements of standards that the band does. I'm sure most deps would turn up if they said they would, but I wouldn't want to be worrying about it as the start time looms, so agreeing a time with the band leader that meets his/her needs, not 'I only need 5 minutes to set up so I'll see you at 8.55'. For the gig, the dep is part of the band and any behaviour or attiutude (good or bad) he/she shows will be reflected on the band. It goes without saying that the kit has to be up to standard but some consideration to the nature of the gig when planning what to use (don't bring a Marshall stack to a relaxed jazz gig 😃). All these things should be discussed and agreed before the gig. If the BL is not experienced, I'd expect the professional musician to discuss and get agreement on these elements without being prompted.

 

Of course, everyone will have their own criteria that they would use to measure the suitability of a dep. And that's the key thing to remember - as a professional musician looking for work, you have to be flexible enough to be able to meet all the criteria that the client requests, or be realistic and honest enough to say no to something that you don't agree with or is not within your ability.  

 

I'm not a professional musician but I have depped and I'd like to think I brought a professional attitude to those gigs.

[Boodang]

19 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Hmmm. The estimable and worthy qualities outlined over the previous 4 pages of this thread are all well and good, but this fellow made a living out of playing the bass...

 

 

... also, making a living from playing bass and being professional not necessarily the same thing!

Can you imagine if Sid had not departed this world so early.... bass player available, can't play bass but plenty of attitude, may smash you in the head with said bass if p!ssed off.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Boodang

[Dan Dare]

As dear old Ian Dury put it, a sense of humour is required amongst the bacon rinds. Lighten up, peeps.

[dodge_bass]

12 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

As dear old Ian Dury put it, a sense of humour is required amongst the bacon rinds. Lighten up, peeps.

I don’t think anyones getting particularly heavy, just chewing the fat (bacon rind) on an interesting topic is all. 

[yorks5stringer]

I was watching an old Jackson Browne performance on YT and looked up the Bassist who had been chugging away, called Derek Frank, a LA session guy who I've never even heard of, but he's the go to Bassist for Shania Twain, Kelly Clarkson and Gwen Stefani. Totally under my radar but doing very well, just had a look at his gear collection. He must be well connected and well paid too!

https://www.derekfrank.com/gear

[Phil Starr]

On 03/01/2023 at 20:33, bass_dinger said:

 

So, what skills does a professional bassist (touring band, session musician, covers band player) have that I can aspire to.

I wonder why you ask? I wasn't clear whether you are looking for something to work on in your skill set or if it the job you aspire to? Or maybe you are just musing?

 

Let's be clear, the hurdle for a working session musician and a covers band are the difference between Olympic qualification and entering the parents egg and spoon race. You can  already do much more than I can and I''ve been gigging in covers bands every other weekend for years. Learning 30 songs by memory playing four to the bar and the root note in the right places gets you an awful long way. Listening and responding to the rest of the band helps a lot too. I take it seriously and practice daily and try to be professional in my attitude but technically I don't offer much, fortunately I've not been rumbled yet

 

Being in a successful touring band is a matter of luck, no disrespect but most of us here could probably learn the whole of the Rolling Stones (insert almost any band you like) back catalogue and go on tour playing it but weren't there when Keef and Mick were growing up.

 

To be a session musician or a professional gun for hire you need to be good, either good at one thing which you will get hired for or with high level musical skills. Growing up my best friends father was a classical musician, he played French Horn variously for the BBC Symphony, Philharmonic and the LSO and incidentally for the Beatles (on Rubber Soul) He practiced lots, hours a day, every day, he treated it like a job! He probably had a lot of talent too, had studied since a child and was a really personable man.

 

The big skill most musicians miss though is enterprise, you aren't going to join a band unless you get out there to find other people to play with. Look for the ads, answer the ads go to auditions, prepare for auditions, say yes to playing with other people. Go to gigs and talk to people. Advertise for people to play with you. Hang around places you know the local musicians hang out or find out where they go if you do. Start your own band. Be flexible too, the chances of you meeting three other musicians whose taste exactly matches yours is close to zero.

 

 

[mario_buoninfante]

20 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Let's be clear, the hurdle for a working session musician and a covers band are the difference between Olympic qualification and entering the parents egg and spoon race

This made me spill my tea!

[Ralf1e]

2 minutes ago, mario_buoninfante said:

This made me spill my tea!

Tea is dangerous. Best stick to beer🤣

[Dad3353]

Mmm... Tea..!

[bass_dinger]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I wonder why you ask? I wasn't clear whether you are looking for something to work on in your skill set or if it the job you aspire to? Or maybe you are just musing?

 

 

I think that I was mainly musing, but I also wanted to improve my skills, and to understand what lifts a musical and creative genius above the likes of me (someone who can mimic other bassists,  badly and slowly).

 

It seems to me that some basslines are very easy to create and play - U2 songs, perhaps.  That feels as if being a bassist should be easy,  but  it clearly isn't. And I didn't understand why it sometimes looks easy, but often isn't. 

 

I have learnt a lot from this thread and have been inspired to carry on improving. Playing, and attitude!

 

 

[Phil Starr]

Ha ha, I don't think we'll ever run out of things to learn, that's part of the fun.

 

Are you in a band?

[mario_buoninfante]

2 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

It seems to me that some basslines are very easy to create and play - U2 songs, perhaps. 

U2's bass lines are definitely less challenging then others at the first sight, but one should keep in mind how much sound and feel play a role in Adam Clayton's style.
Just recently I got Achtung Baby (second hand CD) from a charity shop, and gosh the bass sounds massive!!!!!
Also, some lines are really creative and have a great feel.
Executing them is not impossible for sure, but delivering the same sound and feeling ain't that easy though.

Edited January 10, 2023 by mario_buoninfante

[peteb]

11 hours ago, yorks5stringer said:

I was watching an old Jackson Browne performance on YT and looked up the Bassist who had been chugging away, called Derek Frank, a LA session guy who I've never even heard of, but he's the go to Bassist for Shania Twain, Kelly Clarkson and Gwen Stefani. Totally under my radar but doing very well, just had a look at his gear collection. He must be well connected and well paid too!

https://www.derekfrank.com/gear

 

Funnily enough, I looked him up after seeing your post and he did the following interview with advice for how to make it as a jobbing pro bass player: https://www.musicradar.com/news/session-ace-derek-franks-top-tips-for-bassists-you-dont-get-gigs-by-staying-in-your-bedroom-posting-instagram-and-youtube-videos

 

Worth reading for anyone interested in this thread. 

 

[Sparky Mark]

27 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

Funnily enough, I looked him up after seeing your post and he did the following interview with advice for how to make it as a jobbing pro bass player: https://www.musicradar.com/news/session-ace-derek-franks-top-tips-for-bassists-you-dont-get-gigs-by-staying-in-your-bedroom-posting-instagram-and-youtube-videos

 

Worth reading for anyone interested in this thread. 

 

Just read it; sounds absolutely exhausting! It confirms the level of effort and dedication a pro needs to be truly successful. I doubt I'd get placed in the metaphorical egg and spoon race let alone make Olympic qualification. 

[Sparky Mark]

4 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

I think that I was mainly musing, but I also wanted to improve my skills, and to understand what lifts a musical and creative genius above the likes of me (someone who can mimic other bassists,  badly and slowly).

 

It seems to me that some basslines are very easy to create and play - U2 songs, perhaps.  That feels as if being a bassist should be easy,  but  it clearly isn't. And I didn't understand why it sometimes looks easy, but often isn't. 

 

I have learnt a lot from this thread and have been inspired to carry on improving. Playing, and attitude!

 

 

I would suggest that the majority of jobbing pros are excellent musical technicians, not particularly creative and rarely genii. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Sparky Mark

[peteb]

4 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

I think that I was mainly musing, but I also wanted to improve my skills, and to understand what lifts a musical and creative genius above the likes of me (someone who can mimic other bassists,  badly and slowly).

 

It seems to me that some basslines are very easy to create and play - U2 songs, perhaps.  That feels as if being a bassist should be easy,  but  it clearly isn't. And I didn't understand why it sometimes looks easy, but often isn't. 

 

I have learnt a lot from this thread and have been inspired to carry on improving. Playing, and attitude!

 

 

 

The thing to remember is that most pro bass players are not ‘musical and creative geniuses’, just very good players. But they are still just human beings who have the time to develop the skills they need and ensure that they can get things right in a number of different musical situations very quickly and with a minimum of hassle / rehearsal time. I would say that the main difference between guys like this and very good amateurs / semi-pros will be consistency and nuance. You may be able to play pretty much what they play; they will just pay it that little bit better. Also, they will have better contacts and not have the issues with availability that most guys with day jobs will have.

 

It is true that many basslines are very easy to play. There are many bass players who can play AC/DC bass parts well enough, but how many can play them as well as Cliff Williams? Being able to play simple stuff really well is a skill that pros will need.