Your "Amp-Less" Setup!

[gafbass02]

18 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

it doesn't even sound like a bass, never mind MY bass but it is fine FOH.  This is where @Baloney Balderdash touched upon my main gripe with band sound; I play music for my enjoyment as much as the punters and if I'm frankly hating what I hear, then why do it? 

 

I solved this by running two short and simple signal chains, one to FOH and one to me. This way I can get a great IEM sound with cab sim from my zoom ms60b and an eq pedal, and then my usual sound out the Di to the desk as always. A bit of tinkering has meant that my IEM sound is super close to FOH so I don’t make any weird changes to my onboard EQ whilst playing. 

[warwickhunt]

16 minutes ago, gafbass02 said:

I solved this by running two short and simple signal chains, one to FOH and one to me. This way I can get a great IEM sound with cab sim from my zoom ms60b and an eq pedal, and then my usual sound out the Di to the desk as always. A bit of tinkering has meant that my IEM sound is super close to FOH so I don’t make any weird changes to my onboard EQ whilst playing. 

 

How would I hear the rest of the band?  Guitars use no backline so the FOH is the only sound source, likewise vocals.  I don't need to have the drums through my IEM as I get enough of the drum bleed through either the vocal mic or ambient; the guitar on the other hand is non-existent as are the vocals, how do I hear those?

[Baloney Balderdash]

3 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

How would I hear the rest of the band?  Guitars use no backline so the FOH is the only sound source, likewise vocals.  I don't need to have the drums through my IEM as I get enough of the drum bleed through either the vocal mic or ambient; the guitar on the other hand is non-existent as are the vocals, how do I hear those?

Get a mini mixer and get the mix from the desk send to it.

[gafbass02]

Yup, that’s what I do. A monitor feed from the behringer xair to a rolls pm50 on my pedalboard lets me balance myself against the band. It’s ace. The end result sounds the same as when I rehearse at home in headphones. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, gafbass02 said:

The end result sounds the same as when I rehearse at home in headphones. 

For me the main attraction of an "amp-less" setup.

 

That is much more precise/detailed control over tailoring your tone, as well as much more consistency between respectively your home headphones practice, band rehearsal through a FRFR cab or FRFR PA speaker, and live gig venue PA, tone.     

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[joel406]

4 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

How would I hear the rest of the band?  Guitars use no backline so the FOH is the only sound source, likewise vocals.  I don't need to have the drums through my IEM as I get enough of the drum bleed through either the vocal mic or ambient; the guitar on the other hand is non-existent as are the vocals, how do I hear those?

Well...

 

If you have IEMs, and your IEMs are wireless, your sound system should have WIFI. Your IEMs should already be plugged into the desk. Use the WIFI to connect either your smart phone (iPhone is best) or tablet (iPad is best) to the WIFI network of your desk. Set the app you're using to the bus your IEMs are connected to. You get a mixer on your device that allows you to mix everything to your taste. Remember! Proper EQ is essential. Once you've worked that out it's done. Once you've set your levels you are done. Vocals, guitars, keyboards, bass and drums (as well as any other instrument) will all be available in your mix. Easy as can be. I've been doing this for 2 years now. It's great because going from venue to venue the sound never changes for me. Just a little level adjustment here and there, takes seconds. Then your good for the rest of the show.

[warwickhunt]

32 minutes ago, joel406 said:

Well...

 

If you have IEMs, and your IEMs are wireless, your sound system should have WIFI. Your IEMs should already be plugged into the desk. Use the WIFI to connect either your smart phone (iPhone is best) or tablet (iPad is best) to the WIFI network of your desk. Set the app you're using to the bus your IEMs are connected to. You get a mixer on your device that allows you to mix everything to your taste. Remember! Proper EQ is essential. Once you've worked that out it's done. Once you've set your levels you are done. Vocals, guitars, keyboards, bass and drums (as well as any other instrument) will all be available in your mix. Easy as can be. I've been doing this for 2 years now. It's great because going from venue to venue the sound never changes for me. Just a little level adjustment here and there, takes seconds. Then your good for the rest of the show.

 

That's the nice easy version... which I've tried.    

 

#1 - wireless is flaky due to the number of devices using the congested 2.4ghz.  In my short and limited experience of using IEM I've had drop outs from bass radio gear and/or IE wireless; presently I'm going wired to a Behringer P2 to IE.  

#2 - I'm OK with mixing on my phone and that is a doddle, which leads to my personal issues...

 

The tone of my bass in FOH is fine, the sound through my IEMs is truly and absolutely AWFUL!  We aren't talking a bit of EQing, it is a horrendous compressed, overdriven mush!  I've tried plugging in good headphones - same.  I've used my IE with a variety of sound sources - fine.  Ergo I know it isn't my IEM and has to be the desk or associated equipment.  

 

My present plan is to use a Rolls PM351 so that I have a clean bass tone in my ears and a feed from the desk with all other band members which I can blend.  

[Bassmonkey2510]

Check with your sound guy where your tap point is for you IEMs. You may find you are hearing your signal after FOH processing. This may sound good as a full mix in the room, but bad in your IEMs. 
 

If you want to hear just your sound as it comes from your amp, tap off early to avoid any compressors or amp sims the FOH guys may add to your tone. 
 

if it is still bad, ask to see the input metering on your channel and check it is not clipping. If it is clipping at this stage, it will sound bad everywhere. 
 

good luck

Edited June 26, 2023 by Bassmonkey2510

[Bassmonkey2510]

One other point, if you are using wireless IEMs, make sure the input signal to the IEMs is not distorting the headphone preamp. Just a suggestion 

[warwickhunt]

@Bassmonkey2510

 

FOH is fine.  Metering - nothing is overloading/clipping.  Wireless AND wired through IEM or studio headphones is exactly the same.  

 

It is a total mystery why my bass (and none of the other inputs to the desk) in the Aux mix should be so bad but in bypassing the Soundcraft desk/mixer and using the bass into a Rolls PM351, I can hear my clean bass tone and get a mix of the rest of the band.

[la bam]

44 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

@Bassmonkey2510

 

FOH is fine.  Metering - nothing is overloading/clipping.  Wireless AND wired through IEM or studio headphones is exactly the same.  

 

It is a total mystery why my bass (and none of the other inputs to the desk) in the Aux mix should be so bad but in bypassing the Soundcraft desk/mixer and using the bass into a Rolls PM351, I can hear my clean bass tone and get a mix of the rest of the band.

 

This might be a daft question, but just trying to help - are your iems / headphones good for bass?

 

If they handle bass well, at least you can rule that out.

 

Also, are the iems / headphones mono/stereo and not mobile phone (3 ring) headphones?

 

I had some earphones that were horrendous for bass, and some that are great.

[Baloney Balderdash]

4 hours ago, la bam said:

I had some earphones that were horrendous for bass, and some that are great.

The trick is using studio grade, that is FRFR, headphones, and not those horrible regular so called "hi-fi" headphones that boost the bass and otherwise has a baked in so called "enhanced" EQ profile/uneven frequency response, so what you hear is actually also how your signal really sounds.

 

I can't listen to music now on regular headphones that boost and cut all kind of frequencies messing up how the music was actually mixed and supposed to sound after I got used to listening to the approximate neutral reproduction of my Sennheiser studio headphones. 

 

Those headphones might be good for 112 kb/s MP3 electronic dance music, but it sounds like utter crap for everything else.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[warwickhunt]

I'm using the KZ10s @la bam which are used by many of you and recommended as the budget starting point by @EBS_freak and others.  Aside from that I can run my bass direct into my P2 direct to my IE and the bass sounds fine/great.  

 

This is an absolute ball ache for me as I can not get my Aux sent IEM sound to even resemble a bass that I can use as a reference sound for how I'm playing.  Everything on the Soundcraft ui16 is showing as registering normal, no overdrive or compression yet the tone is like a bee farting in a watering can!  

 

I'll see how the Rolls PM351 works out but because we've never had time for a full tech rehearsal, I keep trying little tweaks and adjustments on the go.  What I will try this weekend is to plug my IE into someone else's Aux and see what they are hearing as nobody has said anything about an awful bass tone in their mixes... hmmmm maybe they've never cared.  LOL

[la bam]

I use those, they should be fine.

 

One last thing to try  - have you flicked the switch in the p2 from mono to stereo or vice versa? Open the battery bit and you'll see it in there. I'm pretty sure it wont be that, but worth a try.

 

And for clarity are you running you're own iem mixer from the mixer and have you set up your own iem mixer screen?

Edited June 27, 2023 by la bam

[warwickhunt]

6 minutes ago, la bam said:

I use those, they should be fine.

 

One last thing to try  - have you flicked the switch in the p2 from mono to stereo or vice versa? Open the battery bit and you'll see it in there. I'm pretty sure it wont be that, but worth a try.

 

Genuinely appreciate the suggestions and don't be put off by the fact I've tried them. 

 

I tried the internal switch literally as soon as I plugged it in for the first time.  I may still try it again as there is never a guarantee that something has changed elsewhere in the signal path in the meantime.  

 

I'm actually wondering if there is a way I can record what is coming into my P2/IE... wondering if I can connect something simple into the headphone output rather than my IE?

[joel406]

5 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

Genuinely appreciate the suggestions and don't be put off by the fact I've tried them. 

 

I tried the internal switch literally as soon as I plugged it in for the first time.  I may still try it again as there is never a guarantee that something has changed elsewhere in the signal path in the meantime.  

 

I'm actually wondering if there is a way I can record what is coming into my P2/IE... wondering if I can connect something simple into the headphone output rather than my IE?

Your EQ is set wrong.

 

I use parametric EQ'ing. Much easier than trying to putz with a graphic. 

 

I set low at around 80/85hz. Level at about +10/11

 

Mids are hella scooped.

 

Low mids around 450 with gain at -12.

 

High mids set to 850/875 with gain at -12.

 

Highs at 8.5k with gain at +3/4.

 

Your Q line should be pretty contoured. Gradual rise up and down. Falling slightly below the mids and a gradual rise up to the highs.

 

The level from the desk cannot be too low. If you are turning levels up above 20 on the mixer, the level set to your bus is too low.

 

If your wireless is having dropouts. Try rescanning. If your using a "budget" or cheap POS wireless. Get a Shure PSM300 pro system. Any and every issue you "claim" to have, I have "never had". And I leave the stage and travel upwards of 100 to 150 feet from the stage. IEMs sound clear and sharp. Zero distortion. Also if you're using "budget" or crap IEMs, get some real ones. I've never tried KZ. Mine are custom fit. With "quality" drivers. I own 2 sets. One 5 driver a side (3 lows 1 mid 1 high) with crossovers. My main set is 8 driver a side (4 low 2 mid 2 high) of course crossovers.

 

You are doing it wrong.

[warwickhunt]

4 minutes ago, joel406 said:

Your EQ is set wrong.

 

I use parametric EQ'ing. Much easier than trying to putz with a graphic. 

 

I set low at around 80/85hz. Level at about +10/11

 

Mids are hella scooped.

 

Low mids around 450 with gain at -12.

 

High mids set to 850/875 with gain at -12.

 

Highs at 8.5k with gain at +3/4.

 

Your Q line should be pretty contoured. Gradual rise up and down. Falling slightly below the mids and a gradual rise up to the highs.

 

The level from the desk cannot be too low. If you are turning levels up above 20 on the mixer, the level set to your bus is too low.

 

If your wireless is having dropouts. Try rescanning. If your using a "budget" or cheap POS wireless. Get a Shure PSM300 pro system. Any and every issue you "claim" to have, I have "never had". And I leave the stage and travel upwards of 100 to 150 feet from the stage. IEMs sound clear and sharp. Zero distortion. Also if you're using "budget" or crap IEMs, get some real ones. I've never tried KZ. Mine are custom fit. With "quality" drivers. I own 2 sets. One 5 driver a side (3 lows 1 mid 1 high) with crossovers. My main set is 8 driver a side (4 low 2 mid 2 high) of course crossovers.

 

You are doing it wrong.

 

What?  

 

Thanks for that insight but I'm assuming I've missed something in translation or you simply have a high opinion of your ability to EQ my bass... without having any idea what it is!  This illustrates that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I suggest you take your over inflated opinion of your self and place it where your very expensive IEM should not be placed.  

[joel406]

1 minute ago, warwickhunt said:

 

What?  

 

Thanks for that insight but I'm assuming I've missed something in translation or you simply have a high opinion of your ability to EQ my bass... without having any idea what it is!  This illustrates that you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

I suggest you take your over inflated opinion of your self and place it where your very expensive IEM should not be placed.  

Enjoy your noise.

[EBS_freak]

Jeez. This escalated somewhat.

[EBS_freak]

3 hours ago, joel406 said:

Your EQ is set wrong.

 

I use parametric EQ'ing. Much easier than trying to putz with a graphic. 

 

I set low at around 80/85hz. Level at about +10/11

 

Mids are hella scooped.

 

Low mids around 450 with gain at -12.

 

High mids set to 850/875 with gain at -12.

 

Highs at 8.5k with gain at +3/4.

 

Your Q line should be pretty contoured. Gradual rise up and down. Falling slightly below the mids and a gradual rise up to the highs.

 

The level from the desk cannot be too low. If you are turning levels up above 20 on the mixer, the level set to your bus is too low.

 

If your wireless is having dropouts. Try rescanning. If your using a "budget" or cheap POS wireless. Get a Shure PSM300 pro system. Any and every issue you "claim" to have, I have "never had". And I leave the stage and travel upwards of 100 to 150 feet from the stage. IEMs sound clear and sharp. Zero distortion. Also if you're using "budget" or crap IEMs, get some real ones. I've never tried KZ. Mine are custom fit. With "quality" drivers. I own 2 sets. One 5 driver a side (3 lows 1 mid 1 high) with crossovers. My main set is 8 driver a side (4 low 2 mid 2 high) of course crossovers.

 

You are doing it wrong.

 

JTUK, is that you?

 

In the interests of a balanced considered response, EQ by numbers mean nothing. You need to EQ with your ears, not by numbers.

 

 

The last paragraph is quite something. Do you just want to slam it out on the desk and get a ruler out too? 

[Baloney Balderdash]

6 hours ago, joel406 said:

Your EQ is set wrong.

 

I use parametric EQ'ing. Much easier than trying to putz with a graphic. 

 

I set low at around 80/85hz. Level at about +10/11

 

Mids are hella scooped.

 

Low mids around 450 with gain at -12.

 

High mids set to 850/875 with gain at -12.

 

Highs at 8.5k with gain at +3/4.

 

Your Q line should be pretty contoured. Gradual rise up and down. Falling slightly below the mids and a gradual rise up to the highs.

 

The level from the desk cannot be too low. If you are turning levels up above 20 on the mixer, the level set to your bus is too low.

 

If your wireless is having dropouts. Try rescanning. If your using a "budget" or cheap POS wireless. Get a Shure PSM300 pro system. Any and every issue you "claim" to have, I have "never had". And I leave the stage and travel upwards of 100 to 150 feet from the stage. IEMs sound clear and sharp. Zero distortion. Also if you're using "budget" or crap IEMs, get some real ones. I've never tried KZ. Mine are custom fit. With "quality" drivers. I own 2 sets. One 5 driver a side (3 lows 1 mid 1 high) with crossovers. My main set is 8 driver a side (4 low 2 mid 2 high) of course crossovers.

 

You are doing it wrong.

No thanks.

 

I am not a particular fan of mud and fizz, and prefer at least some degree of articulation and definition.

 

Thanks for your suggestion though.

 

I'd consider it if I should ever find myself in the strange situation of wanting my bass to sound like a wet fart.

 

Also those outer sliders on that graphic EQ pedal are actually shelfing filters, so they'll already form a gradual curve no matter how you set them.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Rich]

6 hours ago, joel406 said:

Your EQ is set wrong.

 

I use parametric EQ'ing. Much easier than trying to putz with a graphic. 

 

Blah blah blah

 

Throwing your weight around, pontificating and using phrases like "issue you "claim" to have" (are you suggesting he's lying?) are going to win you no friends at all, and just makes you look like a braggart. I politely suggest you wind your neck in a bit.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Rich

[EBS_freak]

Nup. Had to come back.

 

With an EQ like that, I immediately thought we were being trolled by Fieldy. Anyway...

 

Whilst we are at it, let's talk about "quality" drivers. There's only real two main players in the manufacturing of balanced armatures, Knowles and Sonion. Given that the vast majority of the leading brands of IEMs make use of Knowles and Sonion, it would also be worth pointing out that the drivers that are found in many Chinese IEMs are Knowles - and you may be interested to learn that the exact Knowles drivers found in KZ IEMs are commonly found in their more expensive custom counterparts too.

 

Anyway, I'm just off to look at my mixer and try and understand what "20" is.

[Sibob]

6 hours ago, joel406 said:

Your EQ is set wrong.

 

I use parametric EQ'ing. Much easier than trying to putz with a graphic. 

 

I set low at around 80/85hz. Level at about +10/11

 

Mids are hella scooped.

 

Low mids around 450 with gain at -12.

 

High mids set to 850/875 with gain at -12.

 

Highs at 8.5k with gain at +3/4.

 

Your Q line should be pretty contoured. Gradual rise up and down. Falling slightly below the mids and a gradual rise up to the highs.

 

The level from the desk cannot be too low. If you are turning levels up above 20 on the mixer, the level set to your bus is too low.

 

If your wireless is having dropouts. Try rescanning. If your using a "budget" or cheap POS wireless. Get a Shure PSM300 pro system. Any and every issue you "claim" to have, I have "never had". And I leave the stage and travel upwards of 100 to 150 feet from the stage. IEMs sound clear and sharp. Zero distortion. Also if you're using "budget" or crap IEMs, get some real ones. I've never tried KZ. Mine are custom fit. With "quality" drivers. I own 2 sets. One 5 driver a side (3 lows 1 mid 1 high) with crossovers. My main set is 8 driver a side (4 low 2 mid 2 high) of course crossovers.

 

You are doing it wrong.

[Frank Blank]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

The last paragraph is quite something. Do you just want to slam it out on the desk and get a ruler out too? 

I'm in, as long as we are comparing our Mostlychattingshïttenwürsts.