£12,500 Wal at The Gallery - damn

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Kev said:

 Its nothing like comparing them to vintage Fenders.  They're not rare, they're not disontinued, you can buy a Wal, built in exactly the same way, right now, and you'd save thousands.

 

Of course it is the same to vintage fenders. A few years ago you couldn't give a 70s fender away, and now they go for crazy prices. There are certainly many orders of magnitudes more 70s and 80s fender basses than wals in their entire run. They can't be considered even slightly rare and you can buy a fender without waiting built the same way and save a fair bit.

 

Obviously there are changes in the last 6 years or so that have added to 50% of the price to stuff, the fact our money is worth a lot less, but there is still a false idea of rare driving those prices up.

[Kev]

7 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Of course it is the same to vintage fenders. A few years ago you couldn't give a 70s fender away, and now they go for crazy prices. There are certainly many orders of magnitudes more 70s and 80s fender basses than wals in their entire run. They can't be considered even slightly rare and you can buy a fender without waiting built the same way and save a fair bit.

 

Obviously there are changes in the last 6 years or so that have added to 50% of the price to stuff, the fact our money is worth a lot less, but there is still a false idea of rare driving those prices up.

Its honestly nothing like vintage Fenders.  Their value is wholly attributed to their age and era, neither of which has any significant impact on the price of a Wal. 

[Burns-bass]

20 minutes ago, Kev said:

Its honestly nothing like vintage Fenders.  Their value is wholly attributed to their age and era, neither of which has any significant impact on the price of a Wal. 

 

They're directly comparable. 70s Fender were worth almost nothing (I used to import late 70s Fenders from the States for £350 a time). They increased in value recently, as the interest in vintage guitars has grown and people have considered them a safe investment vehicle. Their value isn't about playability, sound, weight, or refinement (because they all score pretty low on all those factors, objectively speaking), but perceived value and investment potential. Check out how many vintage guitar dealers have completed changed their view on these instruments. They're now pushing them out to people who assume that vintage = value. Why? Because most of the good condition pre-CBS stuff is in the hands of collectors and they need to keep earning. 

 

The same dark forces are pumping up the value of these instruments. (New basses are subject to market forces, including increases in raw material costs, transport, production, etc.) None of these affect Wal. Dealers work between themselves to pump an asset and inflate prices. That's what's happening here, and will happen again.

[Burns-bass]

The madness of the market encapsulated in one thread:

 

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/240769/20k-to-splurge-what-s-the-closest-i-can-get-to-a-59-burst#latest

 

No idea what to buy. No idea of value. Asking random people on the internet to help him spend £20k on something that will keep its value.

[Bassybert]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

The madness of the market encapsulated in one thread:

 

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/240769/20k-to-splurge-what-s-the-closest-i-can-get-to-a-59-burst#latest

 

No idea what to buy. No idea of value. Asking random people on the internet to help him spend £20k on something that will keep its value.

Unbelievable. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by Bassybert

[LukeFRC]

11 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

The madness of the market encapsulated in one thread:

 

https://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/240769/20k-to-splurge-what-s-the-closest-i-can-get-to-a-59-burst#latest

 

No idea what to buy. No idea of value. Asking random people on the internet to help him spend £20k on something that will keep its value.

it's crazy isn't it? 


I've got a mate who's got a bit of inheritance money and would like to buy his first proper jazz bass... he's got £800 to spend. 
A few years ago that would get you a nice American Fender, or start to find lots of boutique things on Basschat that have devalued a bit....

Now some secondhand Mexican fenders are out of his price range.

[pineweasel]

2 hours ago, Kev said:

Its nothing like comparing them to vintage Fenders.  They're not rare, they're not disontinued, you can buy a Wal, built in exactly the same way, right now, and you'd save thousands

They are relatively rare. And crucially, you can't just "buy one right now". The order book is closed, there's a four year wait for those with orders, and the new price started at around £6000 the last time I looked. Scarcity is driving up used values.

[Burns-bass]

30 minutes ago, pineweasel said:

They are relatively rare. And crucially, you can't just "buy one right now". The order book is closed, there's a four year wait for those with orders, and the new price started at around £6000 the last time I looked. Scarcity is driving up used values.

 

Relative to what? They're a mass produced item. A quick search finds 9 currently for sale... https://reverb.com/marketplace?query=Wal&make=wal&product_type=bass-guitars

 

It's interesting how they're all advertised for pretty much the same price...

 

Again, you can buy what you want with your money. But at these prices, you're being played by the system.

 

 

[pineweasel]

1 minute ago, Burns-bass said:

Relative to what? They're a mass produced item

Hardly "mass produced". Electric Wood never had more than a handful of employees, and for most of their history only one or two. I bet production never exceeded 10 a week even at their peak in the 80s. 

[Burns-bass]

Just now, pineweasel said:

Hardly "mass produced". Electric Wood never had more than a handful of employees, and for most of their history only one or two. I bet production never exceeded 10 a week even at their peak in the 80s. 

 

If they're knocking out 10 a week over 20 years, you're looking at 10,000 instruments. I'm sure it's lower than that by a large magnitude, but even so, they're not by any definition rare. 

 

[Kev]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

 

They're directly comparable. 70s Fender were worth almost nothing (I used to import late 70s Fenders from the States for £350 a time). They increased in value recently, as the interest in vintage guitars has grown and people have considered them a safe investment vehicle. Their value isn't about playability, sound, weight, or refinement (because they all score pretty low on all those factors, objectively speaking), but perceived value and investment potential. Check out how many vintage guitar dealers have completed changed their view on these instruments. They're now pushing them out to people who assume that vintage = value. Why? Because most of the good condition pre-CBS stuff is in the hands of collectors and they need to keep earning. 

 

The same dark forces are pumping up the value of these instruments. (New basses are subject to market forces, including increases in raw material costs, transport, production, etc.) None of these affect Wal. Dealers work between themselves to pump an asset and inflate prices. That's what's happening here, and will happen again.

The primary driving factor behind the value of 70s Fenders is in the name; they are the value they are because of the era they were built in and their age.  Take a Wal bass that was built in 2019 and another built in 1989, second hand value now will be very similar, but if anything the 2019 will go for more.  The Wal value is nothing to do with its vintage, but with Fender its everything to do with that.  I just don't see how they compare at all.

[Kev]

52 minutes ago, pineweasel said:

They are relatively rare. And crucially, you can't just "buy one right now". The order book is closed, there's a four year wait for those with orders, and the new price started at around £6000 the last time I looked. Scarcity is driving up used values.

Is the book closed?  I wasn't actually aware of that, didn't see anything on the order form on their website?  But if so, its still a patience thing (you missed off the bit about waiting for years on my quote).  The point is, if you want a Wal, you can get one, its just a matter of how much time you want to wait.  But the end result is getting one, its a certainty.  You don't have that with vintage or actually "rare" instruments.  I'd totally understand the value of Wals going crazy if they closed the workshop, but they haven't.  But if they have closed their book, that may be contributing, but when the real boom happened they were certainly still taking orders.

[Burns-bass]

4 minutes ago, Kev said:

The primary driving factor behind the value of 70s Fenders is in the name; they are the value they are because of the era they were built in and their age.  Take a Wal bass that was built in 2019 and another built in 1989, second hand value now will be very similar, but if anything the 2019 will go for more.  The Wal value is nothing to do with its vintage, but with Fender its everything to do with that.  I just don't see how they compare at all.

It’s the value of both has been artificially inflated by guitar dealers and speculators.
 

They are no rarer than they were 10 years ago, it’s just that people now view them as investments.

 

I’ve stated this many times. 
 

People are paying ludicrous prices not because of their intrinsic value (or even quality) but because they’ve been duped into believing them to be safer than cash in the bank.

[Bassybert]

I just hope Justin Chancellor is on some sort of commission 😄

[Kev]

It's just reached this uniquely silly position that anyone taking delivery of their new Wal bass in January will instantly make a sizeable profit if they wanted to sell it on.  I just don't really know who is buying them at this price, and what their justification is. 

 

Has anyone on here paid £10k+ for a used Wal who can fill us in?

 

Again, the comparison with Fender and investment calls back to value attributed to it being a vintage instrument, which doesn't apply here.  There are hundreds more Wals in the world now compared to 10 years ago, whereas there will likely be hundreds less 70s Fenders due to their advancing age.

[tauzero]

43 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

If they're knocking out 10 a week over 20 years, you're looking at 10,000 instruments. I'm sure it's lower than that by a large magnitude, but even so, they're not by any definition rare. 

 

 

I have a Mk II Ashbory. Only 73 made. That must be worth £100k by now.

[Russ]

I remember seeing a Wal in some Cash Converters-type place back in the mid-90s for £400. 😮 They weren't seen as particularly rare back then, or particularly special! 

[admiralchew]

41 minutes ago, Kev said:

It's just reached this uniquely silly position that anyone taking delivery of their new Wal bass in January will instantly make a sizeable profit if they wanted to sell it on.  I just don't really know who is buying them at this price, and what their justification is. 

A similar thing is happening with Noble Pres. As soon as one is delivered it is worth more because there’s a year long wait or a big up-charge to get one in six weeks. Like basses with long wait times, some of it is the impatience factor. I suppose basses are a bit different though as Nobles all work the same way whereas someone after a bass may want different woods or finishes that can’t be had from Reverb and the like.

[BigRedX]

43 minutes ago, Kev said:

Is the book closed?  I wasn't actually aware of that, didn't see anything on the order form on their website?  But if so, its still a patience thing (you missed off the bit about waiting for years on my quote).  The point is, if you want a Wal, you can get one, its just a matter of how much time you want to wait.  But the end result is getting one, its a certainty.  You don't have that with vintage or actually "rare" instruments.  I'd totally understand the value of Wals going crazy if they closed the workshop, but they haven't.  But if they have closed their book, that may be contributing, but when the real boom happened they were certainly still taking orders.

 

The order book is currently closed due to the fact that the current backlog is in excess of 4 years. It says so on their contact page. You can ask to be informed when Wal will be taking orders again, but I suspect that if you aren't ready to put down your deposit on the day that it does re-open you are going to be out of luck. 

 

Therefore you want a Wal right now you have no alternative but to negotiate a price on one of those 9 up for sale. The fact that they are all still available to buy means that they are currently priced on the high side, but I'm sure there would be some wiggle room on price for anyone with actual cash to spend. Also bear in mind that those 9 Wal basses available for sale are a mixture of fretted, fretless, left hand, right hand, 5 string, 4 string etc. So while there are 9 to choose from if you need a particular set of features that cuts down the choice by at least half straight away.

[Kev]

13 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

The order book is currently closed due to the fact that the current backlog is in excess of 4 years. It says so on their contact page. You can ask to be informed when Wal will be taking orders again, but I suspect that if you aren't ready to put down your deposit on the day that it does re-open you are going to be out of luck. 

 

Therefore you want a Wal right now you have no alternative but to negotiate a price on one of those 9 up for sale. The fact that they are all still available to buy means that they are currently priced on the high side, but I'm sure there would be some wiggle room on price for anyone with actual cash to spend. Also bear in mind that those 9 Wal basses available for sale are a mixture of fretted, fretless, left hand, right hand, 5 string, 4 string etc. So while there are 9 to choose from if you need a particular set of features that cuts down the choice by at least half straight away.

Ah I can see you have to expand the dropdown, or at least on my browser.  So, you're added to a waiting list, and they'll contact you when you can order.  So my point remains unchanged really.  I just can't relate to that level of impatience I suppose!

 

16 minutes ago, admiralchew said:

A similar thing is happening with Noble Pres. As soon as one is delivered it is worth more because there’s a year long wait or a big up-charge to get one in six weeks. Like basses with long wait times, some of it is the impatience factor. I suppose basses are a bit different though as Nobles all work the same way whereas someone after a bass may want different woods or finishes that can’t be had from Reverb and the like.

True, but Wal basses today are built in almost the exact same way as they were 30 years ago, which is why it differs so much from value attributed to vintage Fenders and the like.  It isn't disputed by any Wal owner that the current build are at least equal to the builds of old, albeit you get the occasional chancer who tries to ask more for one built by Ian Waller, but doesn't really succeed IME.

 

And noble preamps are a whole other discussion

Edited January 12, 2023 by Kev

[LukeFRC]

38 minutes ago, Kev said:

So, you're added to a waiting list, and they'll contact you when you can order.  So my point remains unchanged really.  I just can't relate to that level of impatience I suppose!

I can - if I want a wal bass 4 years is very long time to wait.

Longer than that for the possibility that I might be able to get on an order list to wait 4 years at an increasing price…. If I had the money I’m just buying a secondhand one at whatever price…. In 5 years I might be dead, have no money or who knows… either you are musically be in need of a Wal or financially it’s not an issue and then you will get one.

 

that says I’m not in the bracket of being able to afford!

[Kev]

8 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

I can - if I want a wal bass 4 years is very long time to wait.

Longer than that for the possibility that I might be able to get on an order list to wait 4 years at an increasing price…. If I had the money I’m just buying a secondhand one at whatever price…. In 5 years I might be dead, have no money or who knows… either you are musically be in need of a Wal or financially it’s not an issue and then you will get one.

 

that says I’m not in the bracket of being able to afford!

If everyone had my attitude, Wal basses would still be £3k used and you may have been able to afford  

[NickA]

Not helped by Scott Devine shelling out $20,000 for a basic fretted Wal custom priced up because someone held it whilst miming to the live aid video.  On top of the previous price hoik caused by Tool releasing an album (on which JC could be playing anything behind all those effects), combined with low interest rates and a falling stock market that make buying "stuff" more attractive ... followed by the order books closing!  Perfect storm.

 

By comparison, £12.5k is pretty reasonable for a rare 6 string ...

 

I reckon prices will plummet when blokes my age (who fell for them in the 80s) start dying off ( along with the remaining rush fans ).

[BigRedX]

15 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

I can - if I want a wal bass 4 years is very long time to wait.

Longer than that for the possibility that I might be able to get on an order list to wait 4 years at an increasing price…. If I had the money I’m just buying a secondhand one at whatever price…. In 5 years I might be dead, have no money or who knows… either you are musically be in need of a Wal or financially it’s not an issue and then you will get one.

 

that says I’m not in the bracket of being able to afford!

 

I've said similar on the SOS forum about limited edition and pre-release announcements of synthesisers (Behringer I'm looking at you). IMO if I can't go into a shop a buy the instrument there and then and take it home with me, or order it on line for next day delivery (or the soonest they can get it to the UK for something from abroad) then I'm really not interested any more, and the instruments in question might as well not exist. Most of the time there will be something available for immediate use that will do the job.

 

I've had 2 guitars and 2 basses custom made for me. The two guitars (both ordered in the late 90s) took less than 3 months each to make. The first bass (a Gus) took a year but a lot of that time was taken up with Simon trying to source suitable suppliers for the finishing of bass and the hardware I had specified. My Sei bass took almost 2 years and herein lies a cautionary tale:

 

In the early 2000s I joined a new band and it soon became obvious to me that fretless bass would be ideal for many of their songs. After spending over a year trying every fretless I came across in shops and at musical instrument shows, I came to the conclusion that the only way I'd get the instrument that I really wanted was to have it custom made. I then spent almost another year researching luthiers before settling on Sei, and placing my order. The bass when it was finished was everything I was looking for. Unfortunately the band folded six months later and my requirements for fretless bass have been minimal since then (I've used on the recorded versions of two songs and that's it).

 

I'd really like Gus to make me a Bass VI based on the Eastwood Hooky neck dimensions (which while being the most suitable out of all the Bass VIs for my needs as at best only an adequate instrument), but price aside, the current waiting time for a new instrument is a minimum of 18 months, and I can't guarantee that I'll still need a bass VI of any description that far into the future.

Edited January 13, 2023 by BigRedX

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, NickA said:

I reckon prices will plummet when blokes my age (who fell for them in the 80s) start dying off ( along with the remaining rush fans ).

 

I would think so - I mean apart from tool who actually plays them now? If you look down the list of players on the tool webiste, of the living ones, Paul McCartney - haven't seen him play that in years, Geddy Lee - used one on one album and now just mostly plays a jazz (even to do those songs), Nick Beggs, used in Kagagoogoo but it isn't even on his equipment list any more, Bruce Thommas - pretty rare to see him without a red P bass like instrument, Flea - switches from fender to musicman, hasn't been seen with a wal for a long time, JJ Burnel, well, its either a black P bass or a Shuker copy of a black P bass.

On their list I don't see any reall current artists.

 

I am sure they will never be worthless and all the time there are more people who want them then can order them they will go up, but like a lot of 'investments', a lot of the value is in the perception that the value will go up