£12,500 Wal at The Gallery - damn

[Woodinblack]

5 hours ago, Boodang said:

I think that's the point being made here, by buying this you are making people pay more as you've set a benchmark. You only need one person with more money than sense and that's it, you're never going to see one of these go for less.

 

But you haven't made anyone buy anything - noone needs these things, all of these things are wants. Diamonds are only expensive because they are kept artificially expensive to keep their value, they are actually pretty common.

[Lw.]

5 hours ago, Boodang said:

I think that's the point being made here, by buying this you are making people pay more as you've set a benchmark. You only need one person with more money than sense and that's it, you're never going to see one of these go for less.

 

That isn't how supply and demand works, though your last part of the sentence may be true. If one person can pay 12k for a luxury item, but if everyone else can only pay say 6k, the price will settle around 6k unless the original person has another 12k going spare. 

 

Basses over about £500 are luxury items, people buy them because they want them not because they need them for work. If there are multiple examples of Wals selling for 12k then that's what they're worth right now. One listing doesn't really prove that though so it remains to be seen. 

[Burns-bass]

11 minutes ago, Lw. said:

 

That isn't how supply and demand works, though your last part of the sentence may be true. If one person can pay 12k for a luxury item, but if everyone else can only pay say 6k, the price will settle around 6k unless the original person has another 12k going spare. 

 

Basses over about £500 are luxury items, people buy them because they want them not because they need them for work. If there are multiple examples of Wals selling for 12k then that's what they're worth right now. One listing doesn't really prove that though so it remains to be seen. 

 

This assumes perfect market conditions, which as we know don't exist.

 

If all dealers of one item or commodity (petrol, for example, or guitars) get together and set a baseline price that indicates to consumers that that's their true value. 

 

In this case, dealers are constantly pushing the bar for these instruments higher, which suggests to buyers (those looking for investments, one would assume) that this is their true value. My contention is that there's collusion to do this (and always has been). It just so happens that it's Wal now, but they can (and will) do this with other instruments. PRS perhaps, Status, Goodfellow – who knows. 

 

Seeing prices rising steadily suggests that they're a good investment (you won't lose money with a Wal, etc) when, again, this isn't necessarily true.

 

My point initially, was that people are being encouraged to spend large amounts on items that aren't particularly rare because they're being manipulated to do it. These tricks are at play in all retail environments. (I'm a partner in a retail business, and none of this stuff is rocket science).

 

 

 

 

[Lw.]

20 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

 

This assumes perfect market conditions, which as we know don't exist.

 

If all dealers of one item or commodity (petrol, for example, or guitars) get together and set a baseline price that indicates to consumers that that's their true value. 

 

In this case, dealers are constantly pushing the bar for these instruments higher, which suggests to buyers (those looking for investments, one would assume) that this is their true value. My contention is that there's collusion to do this (and always has been). It just so happens that it's Wal now, but they can (and will) do this with other instruments. PRS perhaps, Status, Goodfellow – who knows. 

 

Seeing prices rising steadily suggests that they're a good investment (you won't lose money with a Wal, etc) when, again, this isn't necessarily true.

 

My point initially, was that people are being encouraged to spend large amounts on items that aren't particularly rare because they're being manipulated to do it. These tricks are at play in all retail environments. (I'm a partner in a retail business, and none of this stuff is rocket science).

 

 

 

 

Fair enough, it's not a perfect market. 

 

The collusion point is interesting as I can kind of see that it could be happening but then the UK vintage bass market doesn't seem big enough to be worth breaking the law for on price fixing - the financial incentive doesn't seem worth it to me, but then it maybe is for other people. 

 

I do just think that a lot of it is whilst some people have been struggling with cost of living etc... Many others have been absolutely raking it in so once something becomes a luxury item it then gets pulled into the cycle. I'm not so sure people are looking at them as investments, it's more of a people buying nice things because they can thing. 

[Kev]

1 hour ago, Burns-bass said:

 

 

 

Seeing prices rising steadily suggests that they're a good investment (you won't lose money with a Wal, etc) when, again, this isn't necessarily true.

 

 

 

Given the frankly ludicrous levels used Wal basses have reached, I feel the price will crash in the medium term future.  Find one still being sold for £4k ala 5 years ago and that'll be a tidy investment.  But I can't see how they can possibly balloon higher or even stay where they are for long, unless he closes up shop for good.

[admiralchew]

In the last couple of months I’ve seen around a dozen MkIs for sale. About half were through Bass Bros and Bass Direct and they were priced between £7k and £7.5k. All sold bar one at Bass Bros. There are a couple in the UK on eBay for a bit less but it’s more difficult to ascertain the condition and some interested parties may want the perceived assurance from buying through a shop when paying so much. It does suggest a pretty stable level of pricing (I’m discounting non-UK basses here as import VAT and customs mean they’ll be in a price bracket of their own). This makes sense against the background of Wal basses starting around the £7k mark for a new one (I think, based on posts I’ve read elsewhere); even if you are lucky enough to get on the list and are happy to wait four years from then, you’re unlikely to get one cheaper from Wal. So if you really want a Wal, that’s around the starting price unless you get a good deal from someone that paid less for theirs inflation-adjusted and is happy to share their luck.

 

MkIIs are different because there are fewer for sale and seen less often. A new one is priced similarly to a new MkI, I gather, so the asking prices for those of around £9k-£9.5k include a rarity premium. If you want a Wal because of Justin Chancellor then maybe you’d be willing to pay the extra. Also, if you really want a MkII and there aren’t many in the market, then a scarcity thought process may also be that if you don’t buy one of the few now you’ll never see one and never be able to order one if Wal stop taking orders. That may be a cost that someone is happy to pay, particularly if the risk and wait times can be mitigated by paying 20% more against current new prices (or maybe a lower percentage when weighed against the price that would be paid when placing a new order in a year if inflation continues to bite).

 

MkIIIs are similar to MkIIs in that they are seen less rarely. The MKIII fretless 6 at the Bass Gallery is a rarer beast altogether though as six strings hardly ever come up. I’ve only seen that one for sale. If someone really wants a six string Wal, I think that’s the only one for purchase anywhere other than the private market. Given the alternative is waiting for perhaps five years and paying whatever the asking price of a new Wal is then, then £12.5k, while a lot of money for any object, begins to make a bit more sense.

 

I’m not sure collusion is the reason that prices are so high, at least in the case of Wals generally, I just think that current levels of supply and demand and pricing at the workshop have had a real impact. I agree though that, absent continuous inflation, prices aren’t predetermined to forever go up: I suspect some of the demand is driven by fans of Justin Chancellor but, like with other basses, as fans get older and stop playing, demand will drop for basses like his. 

[admiralchew]

I’ll add that I guess if the cost of living crisis really ramps up and the market is flooded with Wals, used prices will go down. However, absent that downward pressure, supply is looking likely to lag demand and there would be little reason for prices to drop.

[Woodinblack]

28 minutes ago, admiralchew said:

I’ll add that I guess if the cost of living crisis really ramps up and the market is flooded with Wals, used prices will go down.

 

The cost of living raise is not a crisis for people who can afford to spend 12k on a bass as a hobby so it probably isn't going to affect it at all. Also with the UK economy crashing out, they are now much cheaper for countries who don't have that problem - they might be expensive now, but if you were buying from the states, they have held the same price.

[admiralchew]

5 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

The cost of living raise is not a crisis for people who can afford to spend 12k on a bass as a hobby so it probably isn't going to affect it at all. Also with the UK economy crashing out, they are now much cheaper for countries who don't have that problem - they might be expensive now, but if you were buying from the states, they have held the same price.

Good points. I think the cost of living crisis may push more people who have Wals (and who didn’t pay £12k) to sell them so supply may increase some. I think demand will stay pretty constant though (as you say, those in the market to buy at those prices won’t be affected).

 

Good point about the US. A lot of Wals were already going there.

Edited January 20, 2023 by admiralchew

[Boodang]

Just had a look on the Bass Gallery site.... they have a huge stock of s/h basses, where do they keep them all?! And 15k for a 'Rhino' Status, prices are getting silly.

[Acebassmusic]

2 hours ago, Boodang said:

Just had a look on the Bass Gallery site.... they have a huge stock of s/h basses, where do they keep them all?! And 15k for a 'Rhino' Status, prices are getting silly.

Their website is rarely up to date. It has my old bass still marked as "for sale" when it actually sold last September! 😁

[Piers_Williamson]

11 minutes ago, Acebassmusic said:

Their website is rarely up to date. It has my old bass still marked as "for sale" when it actually sold last September!

It's their cunning way of getting you to go in there (and possibly hold onto your money a bit longer than they should....albeit we love the place 😬)

[Chris2112]

3 hours ago, Boodang said:

Just had a look on the Bass Gallery site.... they have a huge stock of s/h basses, where do they keep them all?! And 15k for a 'Rhino' Status, prices are getting silly.

 

That was John Edwards' personal bass, though.

[Boodang]

2 hours ago, Chris2112 said:

 

That was John Edwards' personal bass, though.

No disrespect to John Edwards but at 15k I'd expect it to be Jaco's personal bass! (Well maybe I'm being a tiny bit optimistic).

[Chris2112]

Yes, Pino has sold a number of basses through the Gallery and they too have sold for some high prices. The only remarkable one being a Status Series II fretless with a single pickup. John did say they'd also sold Pino's #2 Stingray fretless, which he had kept as a backup since the 80's.

 

But yes, I found the prices quite crazy for those guys, but they evidently sold for a number the owners were happy with. For £15,000 I'd want a bass that could make me sound like Jeff Berlin, Alain Caron and Yoshihiro Naruse all at once 😂😂😂