Famous luthiers about headless, chambered and custom basses

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

..., who in turn got it from any number of 19th century German luthiers.

 

... who were giving a nominal nod and tribute to the 'scroll' headstock of acoustic double basses and violins etc.

[kodiakblair]

10 hours ago, 40hz said:

Also, the way they all seem to really buy into tone wood as a concept in a solid-body, electric instrument (except Carey Nordstrand, who implied it doesn't matter).

Vested interests.

 

Nordstrand's bread & butter is pickups and preamps while the other lot use mystical 'TW' to partly justify  price tags.   

[dclaassen]

On 12/01/2023 at 11:21, mario_buoninfante said:

Interesting interview I found while navigating the internet   

https://www.bassgearmag.com/luthiers-round-table-7/
 

Good reading. My Spectracore is chambered with a bolt on neck and basswood body. It’s strung with low tension flats. Sustain is not great, but it produces a really nice acoustic bass type sound…very nice for jazz.

[40hz]

1 hour ago, kodiakblair said:

Vested interests.

 

Nordstrand's bread & butter is pickups and preamps while the other lot use mystical 'TW' to partly justify  price tags.   

Don't get me wrong - I agree with you. I'm firmly on the concept of 'tone' wood is more or less complete nonsense on a solid-body electric instrument. Just an observation that they seem to vehemently buy into it, but then, they would, wouldn't they? They've got to make £££ and what better way to upcharge than the concept of exotic tone woods.

[mario_buoninfante]

2 hours ago, dclaassen said:

Good reading. My Spectracore is chambered with a bolt on neck and basswood body. It’s strung with low tension flats. Sustain is not great, but it produces a really nice acoustic bass type sound…very nice for jazz.

 

I really like the Spectracore, the fretless one in particular (I think there's a fretted version too, right?).

But, I never actually played one.

[dclaassen]

8 hours ago, mario_buoninfante said:

 

I really like the Spectracore, the fretless one in particular (I think there's a fretted version too, right?).

But, I never actually played one.

I really like the neck as well. Been spending a lot of time with this bass lately, preparing music for a jazz festival. I don’t get tired of playing it.

[DTB]

I read this with some interest as my two favourite basses fit into each category. 
The traditionally built one sounds exactly like the sound in my head that I want straight away. 
The headless chambered one is quite weak in comparison until the preamp controls are used to contour the frequencies. Even then it never quite has the kick and tight sound of the first. It is considerably lighter and more balanced though. 
Of course the differences could just be down to the pick ups rather than the design. Who knows?

[mario_buoninfante]

But here's the interesting thing about all this.

The fact that there hasn't been any scientific comparison between 2 "identical" (as much as possible, since wood is never gonna be exactly the same) basses, still makes me think there are too many variables to account for before one can jump to any definitive conclusion. This at least when talking headless vs standard design.
Also, as I think somebody has pointed out above too, another big factor is the strings. Headless basses have double-ball strings that in my (limited) experience have a different tension.
On my Spirit XT-2 I played Steinberger and Elites double-ball strings and they both seem to have more tension than the standard single-ball strings (played on different basses of course).

 

The bit about chambered/semi-acoustic basses, where they describe the sound characteristics, seems to be more intuitive, for lack of better words.
 

Edited January 19, 2023 by mario_buoninfante
corrected wrong string brand

[DTB]

My headless uses standard strings. 

[itu]

59 minutes ago, mario_buoninfante said:

Headless basses have double-ball strings that in my (limited) experience have a different tension.

On my Spirit XT-2 I played Steinberger and Elixir double-ball strings and they both seem to have more tension than the standard single-ball strings (played on different basses of course).

Tension depends on strings and strings only if the scale length and the action are the same. If you try the same set of say 40-100 on a headed or headless bass, the tension is equal.

 

If the tension changes, your tuning has changed.

 

There can be substantial difference in tension in the same diameter string depending on the core and winding. This is up to manufacturers and their specs. Not every G-string is the same. (...and where's my coat...)

[mario_buoninfante]

3 hours ago, itu said:

If you try the same set of say 40-100 on a headed or headless bass, the tension is equal.

Absolutely, my point was exactly this, that strings play a factor.
The strings I have on my Spirit feel stiffer than any other strings I have played, and smaller movements/bends provide bigger changes in pitch than what I get on my other basses strung with different strings.
I'm not saying it's because they are double-end strings, I'm just saying that 2 different sets of strings might feel totally different.
Surely due to all the factors you mentioned.
I also believe that having 2 ball-ends is different than 1 ball-end and a "sort of a knot" at the headstock though.

Edited January 18, 2023 by mario_buoninfante

[mario_buoninfante]

this seems useful (haven't checked it properly yet though)

 

https://www.daddario.com/globalassets/pdfs/accessories/tension_chart_13934.pdf

Edited January 18, 2023 by mario_buoninfante

[itu]

That's the very tool you need for balanced tension, and odd tunings including (but not limited to*) very low, tenor, piccolo, and tuning in fifths.

 

* Sounds like text from a bank or an insurance company.

[itu]

38 minutes ago, mario_buoninfante said:

I also believe that having 2 ball-ends is different than 1 ball-end and a "sort of a knot" at the headstock though.

What do you mean by this, can you open this up a bit?

[mario_buoninfante]

1 hour ago, itu said:

What do you mean by this, can you open this up a bit?

It's just an idea, didn't even fully thought it through, but I feel like the "strings wrapped around the tuning machine" scenario might be considered less of a "fixed point" compared to the ball-end that's on a headless bass.
I believe the tuning machine system might allow for more "micro-movements" than the headless system (eg strings holding/releasing).

Again, all just a gut feeling, I'm literally thinking about this as I'm writing

[mario_buoninfante]

to add to the above, in a tuning machine scenario strings can slide through, while that is just not possible with a double-ball end system.
I know that sliding through would mean lowering the pitch, but it might be (speculating again) that there's enough tolerance (in the human brain) to make the relieved tension be perceived even before the ear catches up with the pitch changing.

Edited January 18, 2023 by mario_buoninfante

[kodiakblair]

Have 2 single coil P-basses strung with tapes, La Bella 60 -115.

 

One bass is headless, the other standard bridge and peghead. Can't say I've ever noticed any difference between the two basses with regard to tuning issues.

[tauzero]

7 hours ago, mario_buoninfante said:

But here's the interesting thing about all this.

The fact that there hasn't been any scientific comparison between 2 "identical" (as much as possible, since wood is never gonna be exactly the same) basses, still makes me think there are too many variables to account for before one can jump to any definitive conclusion. This at least when talking headless vs standard design.
Also, as I think somebody has pointed out above too, another big factor is the strings. Headless basses have double-ball strings that in my (limited) experience have a different tension.
On my Spirit XT-2 I played Steinberger and Elixir double-ball strings and they both seem to have more tension than the standard single-ball strings (played on different basses of course).

 

I have headlesses that use DBE and headlesses that use standard strings.

 

I use Elites, 40-125, on almost all my basses, which are almost all 34" scale, and there's no difference in tension.

[mario_buoninfante]

38 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I have headlesses that use DBE and headlesses that use standard strings.

 

I use Elites, 40-125, on almost all my basses, which are almost all 34" scale, and there's no difference in tension.

Fair enough, it's probably just me. Atm I have Elites DBE on the Spirit, and D'Addario EXL 165 and factory (unknown to me) strings on 2 other basses.
I seem to be feeling the difference, but it's not like comparing apples to apples since it's different brands.

Edited January 19, 2023 by mario_buoninfante

[tauzero]

43 minutes ago, mario_buoninfante said:

It's just an idea, didn't even fully thought it through, but I feel like the "strings wrapped around the tuning machine" scenario might be considered less of a "fixed point" compared to the ball-end that's on a headless bass.
I believe the tuning machine system might allow for more "micro-movements" than the headless system (eg strings holding/releasing).

Again, all just a gut feeling, I'm literally thinking about this as I'm writing

 

On a headed bass, there is a greater length between the two absolute fixed ends, the bridge/tailpiece and the tuner, as there's a non-sounding length of string between nut and tuner.

 

Assuming two identical strings, the tension on the string for the same scale length and same note will be the same, so headed and headless will be the same tension.

 

In order to fret a string, you have to push it down, which deflects it very slightly so it needs to stretch by a minute amount. That minute amount will be less of a proportion of the length between the fixed ends for a headed bass than a headless. I don't think you'll feel the difference in the real world unless your action is a couple of cm at the 12th fret.

[mario_buoninfante]

Yap, I'm with you about this, it does make sense.
I'm pretty sure the differences I'm perceiving are due to other factors, and there are so many things:

• 2 totally different basses
• because of the above, inevitably 2 different setups
• 2 different sets of strings - same gauge but different brands - I wouldn't know about the core - also 1 set is Steel (headless) the other is Nickel
• different necks (1.5" D profile VS 1.75" medium C profile) and this I'm pretty sure makes me play differently

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by mario_buoninfante

[mario_buoninfante]

Apart from all the comments so far, this seems to confirm it

https://www.daddario.com/products/guitar/bass-guitar/xl-nickel-bass/exl170-nickel-wound-bass-light-45-100-long-scale/
https://www.daddario.com/products/guitar/bass-guitar/xl-nickel-bass/esxl170-nickel-wound-bass-light-45-100-double-ball-end-long-scale/
 

same tension reported

[mario_buoninfante]

Also, I'm just realising I might be confusing tension with flexibility/stiffness!!!!!

That was my initial point, but then I clearly got lost and started thinking about tension

 

https://liutaiomottola.com/myth/perception.htm

 

 

 

 

Edited January 19, 2023 by mario_buoninfante

[Downunderwonder]

On 15/01/2023 at 23:20, 40hz said:

Also, the way they all seem to really buy into tone wood as a concept in a solid-body, electric instrument (except Carey

You would buy into it too if your livelihood depended in large part on upcharging for exotic timbers.

[DTB]

5 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

On a headed bass, there is a greater length between the two absolute fixed ends, the bridge/tailpiece and the tuner, as there's a non-sounding length of string between nut and tuner.

 

Assuming two identical strings, the tension on the string for the same scale length and same note will be the same, so headed and headless will be the same tension.

 

In order to fret a string, you have to push it down, which deflects it very slightly so it needs to stretch by a minute amount. That minute amount will be less of a proportion of the length between the fixed ends for a headed bass than a headless. I don't think you'll feel the difference in the real world unless your action is a couple of cm at the 12th fret.

Does it though? I don’t think the string does stretch when you fret a note. I think when you fret a note you are just taking up the slack (all be it a small amount) in the string. It would only need to stretch if it were tensioned up to almost breaking point. Also if it was stretching to reach the fret there would be virtually no sustain to a note because the string would need an incredible amount of energy to continue to vibrate. 
Also if the string was stretching to reach the fret it would be out of tune afterwards because I don’t think steel and nickel have much elasticity so the string would stay stretched which equals a flat note.  
i think it’s simply the slack in the string you are taking up to fret a note, not the string stretching.