Mic for bass cab on stage

[Bloc Riff Nut]

I'm researching microphones for mic'ing the bass cab on stage. It's going to be combined with DI. Hope this is in the right place; my searches weren't finding anything, but my wording could have been poor. 

 

My budget is £300 max and that's new or used. I've looked and listened online to the usual suspects;
Electro voice re320
Shure SM57
Shure sm7b
Shure Bèta 52a
CAD Audio KBM412
SENHEISER MD421
Sennheiser e602II EvolutionSeries
AKG D112
Audio D6
Heil PR40
Beyerdynamic m88

Of these the Beyerdynamic M88 was, surprisingly, my favourite. Simply because it had the least colouring. 

 

What are you guys using? 

And how are you getting on with sound guys with the " I'd like it mic'ed" opinion? 

 

Cheers

 

Phil

Edited January 16, 2023 by Bloc Riff Nut
Used Dutch words in some places 😩

[BigRedX]

What are you hoping to achieve that the DI isn't managing to do on its own?

 

What cabs are you using?

 

How big are the stages that you are playing?

 

Does your band use its own PA or sound engineer?

Edited January 16, 2023 by BigRedX

[Bloc Riff Nut]

Hello Big Red,

 

 

 

What I want to Achieve is that the signal the mixing desk gets is a close to the sound I hear coming out of the Barefaced 2x210 as possible. 

 

I'm using a Precision with flatwounds going through a Trace Elliot TwinValve into the Barefaced 210's.

 

This is the sound/ tone I've always been looking for and it's perfect for the Stax Soul we play.

 

 

 

So the aim is to give the sound engineer what I hear on stage via the mic but also the DI should there be any problems. 

 

 

 

More often than not we play pubs that can hold a hundred punters max but now and then we get a fair sized gig.

 

We have our stage volume relatively low(our drummer is tame). We always go through the PA.

I always find the DI's too fat and bassy and just lacking the character of a mic'ed cab. But I do understand the control/safety they offer an engineer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Bloc Riff Nut

[Steve Browning]

29 minutes ago, Bloc Riff Nut said:

Hello Big Red,

 

 

 

What I want to Achieve is that the signal the mixing desk gets is a close to the sound I hear coming out of the Barefaced 2x210 as possible. 

 

I'm using a Precision with flatwounds going through a Trace Elliot TwinValve into the Barefaced 210's.

 

This is the sound/ tone I've always been looking for and it's perfect for the Stax Soul we play.

 

 

 

So the aim is to give the sound engineer what I hear on stage via the mic but also the DI should there be any problems. 

 

 

 

More often than not we play pubs that can hold a hundred punters max but now and then we get a fair sized gig.

 

We have our stage volume relatively low(our drummer is tame). We always go through the PA.

I always find the DI's too fat and bassy and just lacking the character of a mic'ed cab. But I do understand the control/safety they offer an engineer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As with recording, I always want DI and mic. I don't carry my own and most stages I find the cab already mic'd. A mic'd speaker is more forgiving than a DI on its own (don't anyone waste their time with any stupid 'technique' answers).

[BigRedX]

Thanks for the extra information.

 

Is that one or two Barefaced cabs? Do they have tweeters or just the 10" drivers?

 

Unfortunately the sound that your hear from your cab(s) when you are stood several feet away from them, will not be the same as the sound of one of the drivers being close-mic'd no matter how flat/accurate the mic is. Have a listen to each of the drivers in turn close up while someone plays your bass, and then compare it to sound from where you would normally be stood, and you hear what I am on about. Instead I would spend some time working with the PA engineer to EQ the DI sound so that it more closely matches the sound coming out of the cab.

[Steve Browning]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

Thanks for the extra information.

 

Is that one or two Barefaced cabs? Do they have tweeters or just the 10" drivers?

 

Unfortunately the sound that your hear from your cab(s) when you are stood several feet away from them, will not be the same as the sound of one of the drivers being close-mic'd no matter how flat/accurate the mic is. Have a listen to each of the drivers in turn close up while someone plays your bass, and then compare it to sound from where you would normally be stood, and you hear what I am on about. Instead I would spend some time working with the PA engineer to EQ the DI sound so that it more closely matches the sound coming out of the cab.

Perfectly true. For me it's a way of making the sound a little less sanitised, if you get my drift. I do understand the level of compromise there. For all I know, foh might have the mic off! 🙂

[Trueno]

I bought a Shure Beta 57 years ago. Originally for sax and flute… because I read it had quite a flat response (compared to the SM58 anyway). It’s built like a tank and had many uses since I started playing bass, including micing drums, guitar cabs and BVs. I’ve never used it to mic a bass cab, but I’m sure it would be fine if I did.

[Lozz196]

3 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

As with recording, I always want DI and mic. I don't carry my own and most stages I find the cab already mic'd. A mic'd speaker is more forgiving than a DI on its own (don't anyone waste their time with any stupid 'technique' answers).

Yep, on the last recording I did it was a mix of DI and mic’d cab. Each sounded good but together it raised it to a new level (imo of course).

[BigRedX]

Before I ditched all my amplification, I always recorded with a mic on the cab as well as DIs from both the amp and direct from the bass. However I have no idea which signals were actually used in the final mix of the tracks, and TBH since the bass sounded exactly how I wanted it, I didn't really care which signal(s) were used. After all it's the end result that matters.

 

Live I'm not convinced that mic'ing the bass cab is good idea. It's a lot of extra effort for both the band and the PA, it opens up the FoH and monitor mix to lots of additional LF problems, and unless the bassist is using a single driver cab with no tweeter, then a single mic close to one speaker can't really come close to capturing the sound of the whole rig. If the OP wants to go down this route, they will need to experiment to find the best mic and combine that with the best speaker and mic position and then mark that location on the cab grill/cloth, so that next time it's mic'd up they can get the mic in the same place, otherwise it won't sound the same from gig to gig.

[Bloc Riff Nut]

What amazes me is that you can have upwards of 10 or 15 mics on stage; surely one more isn't "a lot of extra effort".

 

The kick has a mic which doesn't overwhelm the mic, PA or front of house with additional LF problems.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Acebassmusic]

2 hours ago, Bloc Riff Nut said:

What amazes me is that you can have upwards of 10 or 15 mics on stage; surely one more isn't "a lot of extra effort".

 

The kick has a mic which doesn't overwhelm the mic, PA or front of house with additional LF problems.

 

 

The kick tends to only have to handle a relatively narrow range of frequencies and is eq'd / gated / compressed to handle its workload. A bass has a much wider range of frequencies and dynamics to cover. You can mic a cab but it brings its own issues and compromises. First thing I would do is spend time and see if the desk can mix the DI output to a similar sound that you're cabs are giving.......bearing in mind that once the drummer counts in, all bets are off for your carefully crafted bass sound 🤣🤣

[Wilson_51_]

19 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 If the OP wants to go down this route, they will need to experiment to find the best mic and combine that with the best speaker and mic position and then mark that location on the cab grill/cloth, so that next time it's mic'd up they can get the mic in the same place, otherwise it won't sound the same from gig to gig.

I had some success using an ampclamp and audix d4 on my cab. I found it once it was set for the first time. It could be replicated every time after that. As it slides onto the cab in the same place. Might be an avenue to explore for the OP. 

[Bloc Riff Nut]

Aan amp clamp is a great idea to keep the mic placement consistent. I've had it right over the dust cap/dead centre at rehearsals. That's easy enough to remember ever for me. Although that may change with different mics. 

 

So the question isn't Should/ can it be done, but Which mics do you prefer/use?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BigRedX]

IME having a dedicated sound engineer for the band who knows exactly how you want to sound is far more useful then any amount of additional equipment. All the bands that I have been in that had their own PA engineer were able to set up, sound check, and get a great on stage and FoH sound far more quickly, especially if the band has unusual sound requirements.

[Chienmortbb]

Try the Halo https://www.sontronics.com/halo

[Downunderwonder]

Akg P2 is very flat response up to 5kHz. It is inexpensive. You need a 5/8 female to male 3//8 steel adapter. The 3/8 goes into the supplied steel insert in the clip. Then you're sorted. This gets around having to screw your integral plastic mic 'clip' onto the mic stand 5/8 male and chewing it to death in three gigs.

[knicknack]

Happy user of an M88 on an ampclamp here, just slides into place every time! 

[Bloc Riff Nut]

We don't have our own dedicated sound engineer so thanks for the mic tips. I'll check out Sontronics, M88 and AKG P2.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Bloc Riff Nut said:

Sontronics

Call Trevor at Sontronics. He is very helpful.

[knicknack]

Here's how the M88 looks on an Ampclamp:

 

[jimmyb625]

7 hours ago, Bloc Riff Nut said:

We don't have our own dedicated sound engineer so thanks for the mic tips. I'll check out Sontronics, M88 and AKG P2.

 

 

Do you have your own PA, or are you using the venue supplied one, as well as their engineers?

 

The rig and room you're playing in is going to influence the sound out front, as will the engineer doing the mixing. It's likely that this will have a bigger influence than the mic you're using. 

 

Also, as others have said, the mic positioning is going to make a difference as well, so make sure you allow a good amount of time to trial it before you get to the gig.

 

Ultimately, it's your money and your choice, but I'm not sure you'll get that much benefit. With that said, I've used the Sontronics Halo and the Sennheiser MD421 when recording.

[Pea Turgh]

AKG D112?  Only had my cab mic’d on a couple of gigs ever, and the soundies struggled with feedback.  I assume that was them rather than the D112 though!

I’d pick the Beyer that you already said you liked though.

[paul_5]

it's been a while since I did any recording with serious microphones, but I've and great results in the past with the Sennheiser MD421 or the EV RE20 - there is no proximity effect with this mic, so it can go incredibly close to the cab without becoming boomy.

[Jack]

I've never miced my own cabinet on stage but when I was working at a secondary school I got very involved with their live sound and we bought some of the Thomann BD 200 and they are surprisingly good for bass and guitar amps, as well as drums. Not many people have a bad word to say about Thomann's own brand stuff and these are good by any metric and amazing for the money you pay. Maybe check those out if you were just thinking of dipping your toes in.

 

However, my lasting legacy at that school has been removing mics from loud stages and encouraging DI use, so take that for what you will.  

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 16/01/2023 at 13:44, Bloc Riff Nut said:

Hello Big Red,

 

 

 

What I want to Achieve is that the signal the mixing desk gets is a close to the sound I hear coming out of the Barefaced 2x210 as possible. 

 

I'm using a Precision with flatwounds going through a Trace Elliot TwinValve into the Barefaced 210's.

 

This is the sound/ tone I've always been looking for and it's perfect for the Stax Soul we play.

 

 

 

So the aim is to give the sound engineer what I hear on stage via the mic but also the DI should there be any problems. 

 

 

 

More often than not we play pubs that can hold a hundred punters max but now and then we get a fair sized gig.

 

We have our stage volume relatively low(our drummer is tame). We always go through the PA.

I always find the DI's too fat and bassy and just lacking the character of a mic'ed cab. But I do understand the control/safety they offer an engineer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ideally a sound engineer's main concern should not be control/safety but representing the music in the best possible way, and as close as possible to how the artist in question envisions it.

 

Though I do realize that a lot of sound engineers sadly aren't really qualified for their job.

 

A one size fits all standard solution, which is exactly what many people who call themself sound "engineers" operate with, just won't cut it when we are talking music or art in general, or really in all that many other situations in life for that matter, I guess maybe with the exception of working at an assembly line where such utterly incompetent attitude might actually in fact even be desired.

 

With today's technology a properly constructed AI might in fact quite likely be able to do a much better job at serving the individual band's sound than one of those hacks.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash