Need a bit more…. Oomph

[Steve_nottm]

Hi,

I currently play through an orange terror 500 into a couple of Phil Jones c4’s and recently I’ve found I might need a bit more, fullness?  I think volume wise it’s fine, but I miss a bit of the big sound I hear from other bands (usually when they go through the pa, or have a bigger cab I think).

 

would it be ok to look at adding another c4 or 2?  Portability is important, hence not using a big 4x10.  Any other ideas?

 

 

[Mykesbass]

Have you heard your rig from the same distance that you have heard other bands' rigs? It could well sound very different when you are not next to it.

[thodrik]

The C4 cabs are 8 ohms each so you can't another without damaging the amp which has a four ohm minimal load. Adding another cabinet would damage the amp. 

 

If you can hear yourself on stage and you are going through the PA I would probably make do, otherwise you will need to look at a new cabinet that gives you the kind of onstage monitoring that you ideally want. If volume is not an issue is it perhaps more of an EQ issue? As said by Mykesbass above though, the bass may sound different depending on where you are standing. 

 

[Steve_nottm]

10 minutes ago, Mykesbass said:

Have you heard your rig from the same distance that you have heard other bands' rigs? It could well sound very different when you are not next to it.

Tbf that’s a good point.  I go out front for the siundcheck but only for the length of a cable.  Might have to get a guitarist to slum it for a bit on bass and have a listen.

[Steve_nottm]

5 minutes ago, thodrik said:

The C4 cabs are 8 ohms each so you can't another without damaging the amp which has a four ohm minimal load. Adding another cabinet would damage the amp. 

 

If you can hear yourself on stage and you are going through the PA I would probably make do, otherwise you will need to look at a new cabinet that gives you the kind of onstage monitoring that you ideally want. If volume is not an issue is it perhaps more of an EQ issue? As said by Mykesbass above though, the bass may sound different depending on where you are standing. 

 

Thanks.  Yep understand the ohms point which I hadn’t considered.  
 

I don’t usually go through the pa so I’m reliant on my gear to provide enough bass in total.  Pa only does vocals unless it’s a bigger venue when we hire in pa and sound guy help.

[thodrik]

3 minutes ago, Steve_nottm said:

Thanks.  Yep understand the ohms point which I hadn’t considered.  
 

I don’t usually go through the pa so I’m reliant on my gear to provide enough bass in total.  Pa only does vocals unless it’s a bigger venue when we hire in pa and sound guy help.

Then I would go either bigger cab or cabs. Its strange that a lot of times that the only time you need a big cab is when you are playing in a small venue with no bass going through the PA. 

[Mykesbass]

I'm sure one of the speaker experts on here will correct me if I'm wrong, but my back of an envelope calculation shows that the surface area of the PJ cabs is very small - a couple of 112s will be significantly larger and give you a lot more movement of air.

[Lozz196]

I use two Ashdown ABM PRO NEO 210s - they also do 112 & 115 in the range. They’re nicely sized (speakers angled to cut down width) light enough to be able to carry both at the same time (think about 15kg). I think I’d be looking at similar sorts of cabs from across the regular manufacturers. 

[BassAdder60]

Definitely more speakers / Cab instead of your current cabs 

 

I use a 100w valve amp into two ABM210H cabs and it’s a very full and loud result 

 

As mentioned the ABM Pro Neo cabs are nice too and light ( sealed cabs ) 

 

I’ve used both but I lean towards the heavier gear CTM100 and ported ABM cabs which work for me against 4x12 Marshall cabs !!! and heavy hitting drummers 

[NancyJohnson]

2 hours ago, Steve_nottm said:

Hi,

I currently play through an orange terror 500 into a couple of Phil Jones c4’s and recently I’ve found I might need a bit more, fullness?  I think volume wise it’s fine, but I miss a bit of the big sound I hear from other bands (usually when they go through the pa, or have a bigger cab I think).

 

would it be ok to look at adding another c4 or 2?  Portability is important, hence not using a big 4x10.  Any other ideas?

 

 

I've run so many different combinations of enclosures, I've lost track of things.  Each have their own merits.  The most impactful thing was when I won the Barefaced Big One (15/6) at one of the bashes a few years back.  Before this, I'd run a variety of set ups (SWR, Trace Eliot tri-amp, Ashdown 4x10/2x10/1x15 (mix and match dependent on the room), I was a Hartke endorsee - various 10"/15" cabs); the evening I won the Barefaced I gigged with it in a smallish club in Basingstoke and the result was astounding really.  Whereas the Hartke kit was kind of loud and aggressive, the Big One just kind of dialled that aggression back a bit, giving me scooped-mids plus wobble/whump/oomph as well.  While I'm also running a Darkglass 1x12 (which I will double up this year), for me a 15/6 is the ideal combination.

 

As I've posted previously, tone is subjective and what I look for isn't everyone's cup of tea.  People will argue that the frequency range of say a certain brand of 12" speakers will match or better that of a 15", but we're all in the situation where we simply aren't able to chuck £££ at swapping over speakers on a whim.   

[Sparky Mark]

IMO the cabs are the issue. I've seen a few PJB users add more and larger PJB cabs chasing an output level that they're not really designed to achieve. PJB seem best at almost hifi quality bass at moderate to low volumes.  

[naxos10]

+1

Have a look at Barefaced cabs, there seems to be a few in the classifieds at the moment.

[BigJHW]

+1 to Naxos10's comment

 

Grab a Super 12(T) (Gen 2 - i use one of them) both around 16-18kg if i remember and can handle upto 1200 watts

or

The newer Gen 3 Super Twin - 18kg upto 1200watts handling of facemeltingly awesome BASS, or Big Twin II if you need that HORN - 22ish kg but even more facemeltingly awesome bass upto 1600watts handling

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On 17/01/2023 at 09:25, Mykesbass said:

I'm sure one of the speaker experts on here will correct me if I'm wrong, but my back of an envelope calculation shows that the surface area of the PJ cabs is very small - a couple of 112s will be significantly larger and give you a lot more movement of air.

That. The cone area of a five inch cone, Sd, is around 100 square cm. Four of them is around 400 square cm. An average twelve is 530 square cm. Just as significant is the excursion limit, xmax, which combines with Sd to give displacement, Vd. Vd defines how loud a driver may go. An average five inch Vd is 50cc, making it 200cc for four. An average twelve Vd is 300cc, a high end twelve Vd is 500cc.

 

There are a number of other factors which impact how low a five can go. They can go as low as larger drivers, but to do so they sacrifice sensitivity, which means less output per watt of input. I'm a big fan of fives myself, in the right context, which IME is as a midrange driver used in conjunction with a larger woofer.

[Dan Dare]

Bill's right. I use C4s. The cone area of a C4 is the same as a 1x10. I love them tonally and for smaller gigs, two cabs is great, but I add a Berg' 12 (no tweeter - can't stand them for bass) on occasions when I need to fill a larger space (my head will drive 2 ohms, so three 8 ohm cabs are fine with it). I reckon one of the current compact high quality 1x12 cabs, driven by a spare amp if you have one, would work for you.

[40hz]

I'd hazard a bet and say you probably are getting the oomph you're after, but, you're not hearing it correctly, being so close to the cabinets. I recently thought my Trace Elliot 2x8 cabs were a bit low on the low end up close, so made my singer play the bass while I went out 15ft or so into the room, and they suddenly sounded HUGE. 

 

I used to suffer with this with my old Markbass 2x12, where I had a couple of people, at separate points, at the back of venues, actually come up to me and tell me the bass was overpowering at the back of the room. Which I found utterly inconceivable, as it sounded crap to me on stage!

Edited January 18, 2023 by 40hz

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Google 'boundary sourced low frequency cancellation'. You get it when you're close to boundaries. It goes away when you move away from them.

[Chienmortbb]

18 hours ago, 40hz said:

I used to suffer with this with my old Markbass 2x12, where I had a couple of people, at separate points, at the back of venues, actually come up to me and tell me the bass was overpowering at the back of the room. Which I found utterly inconceivable, as it sounded crap to me on stage!

Bill is right (I used Duck Duck Go but use Google if you must) However this has a lot to do with dispersion. Your 2x12 will be throwing plenty of volume and bandwidth out into the room, but you are probably standing in front of your cab with your head above some of the higher frequencies of your bass. This is why a proper mid/high frequency driver and crossover is required. Then you hear more of what the audience hears.

 

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

At the very least either lift the cab or tilt it back to aim the drivers as close as possible to your ears. One of the reasons why the 8x10 gets so much love is its height allows you to hear the mids and highs.

[Baloney Balderdash]

You won't like this suggestion, but honestly, get a good, but not necessarily expensive, 15" cab.

 

You probably won't believe me but the The Box PA 502 works amazingly well as a bass cab and have really great low end reproduction, note though that it is FRFR and that it is rather heavy: https://www.thomann.de/gb/the_box_pa502_fullrangesystem.htm

 

Sounds no short of amazing!

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Phil Starr]

On 17/01/2023 at 12:43, Steve_nottm said:

volume wise it’s fine, but I miss a bit of the big sound I hear from other bands

 

On 18/01/2023 at 16:03, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

The cone area of a five inch cone, Sd, is around 100 square cm. Four of them is around 400 square cm. An average twelve is 530 square cm. Just as significant is the excursion limit, xmax, which combines with Sd to give displacement, Vd. Vd defines how loud a driver may go. An average five inch Vd is 50cc, making it 200cc for four. An average twelve Vd is 300cc, a high end twelve Vd is 500cc.

 

There are a number of other factors which impact how low a five can go. They can go as low as larger drivers, but to do so they sacrifice sensitivity

I think you've realised you just have the wrong tool for the job and Bill has explained why. Your speakers are notable designs and there are advantages in small drivers, yours don't lack bass but they are only the equivalent of inefficient 1x10's where efficiency has been traded for good bass. 

 

Not all tens and 12's are equal but really the minimum you need is a good 2x10 or really good single 12 to keep up with a drummer. For mid range gear a couple of 12's will work well using one for the less demanding situation and doubling up when you play bigger venues.

 

You probably need to upsize but remember to look for something that sounds good to you, not just to jump to the first thing. 

[40hz]

On 19/01/2023 at 12:11, Chienmortbb said:

Bill is right (I used Duck Duck Go but use Google if you must) However this has a lot to do with dispersion. Your 2x12 will be throwing plenty of volume and bandwidth out into the room, but you are probably standing in front of your cab with your head above some of the higher frequencies of your bass. This is why a proper mid/high frequency driver and crossover is required. Then you hear more of what the audience hears.

 

 

That 2x12 I no longer have!

 

With my current Trace 2x8 stack, it's tall enough to, more or less, be at ear level. I can hear a nice full range of sound apart from 'deep' bass. It is there - just not stood next to the cab. The crowd are getting it though. This was my original point to the OP who felt he needed more guts in his sound - he probably does have it!

Edited January 21, 2023 by 40hz

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

He may, he may not. When I do my initial sound check in a smaller room without major PA support I do it from out on the dance floor, adjusting my volume and tone for the best result there. Whatever that ends up sounding like on stage I live with.

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

He may, he may not. When I do my initial sound check in a smaller room without major PA support I do it from out on the dance floor, adjusting my volume and tone for the best result there. Whatever that ends up sounding like on stage I live with.

yup.

 

I wear foam ear plugs so I’m very used to setting the sound and then putting up with the “tone” I hear through the plugs.

[ukbassboy]

On 17/01/2023 at 15:13, NancyJohnson said:

 

The most impactful thing was when I won the Barefaced Big One (15/6) at one of the bashes a few years back.  Before this, I'd run a variety of set ups (SWR, Trace Eliot tri-amp, Ashdown 4x10/2x10/1x15 (mix and match dependent on the room), I was a Hartke endorsee - various 10"/15" cabs); the evening I won the Barefaced I gigged with it in a smallish club in Basingstoke and the result was astounding really.  Whereas the Hartke kit was kind of loud and aggressive, the Big One just kind of dialled that aggression back a bit, giving me scooped-mids plus wobble/whump/oomph as well.  While I'm also running a Darkglass 1x12 (which I will double up this year), for me a 15/6 is the ideal combination.

Nice to see someone else still rocking a Big One! I bought one used on here years back and it's still going strong (but then I can count how many times a year I gig on one hand!). I had an Ashdown ABM 410 and a Mag 15 before that and the Big One has more oomph then both of them put together! We have an old but pretty decent PA set up (couple of 18inch subs and mackie towers on top) and the Big One can get loud enough to be heard over top of them and need dialling back! 

 

I therefore highly recommend Barefaced cabs. I haven't tried their new 12inch stuff but people seem super impressed with them. In fact, I've just decided to get rid of the ABM410 (which I still use at low volume at home) to get something smaller like the Super Midget or BB2. The ABM410 looks and sounds lovely, but at 36kgs it's not going anywhere soon time for something smaller and lighter that gives me another option over the Big One.