how do you tell someone they suck?

[martthebass]

What about the old?,

'could all the good musician's take one step forward....wait, not so fast [insert name here]'

Sorry, I'll get me coat

[guitarnbass]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='49750' date='Aug 23 2007, 07:02 PM']can't think of any way of doing something like that without it sounding like a critisism.

though i did forget to say thanks for the ideas so far, keep em coming.[/quote]

I'd say listen, you're a capable guy and a great laugh, but your level of musicianship isn't as high as I would have liked, namely your timing, tone, stage presense are what's causing the problem, or whatever it is your case. It's nice to pick out a few good things before you mention the bad points, but try to be specific. Another thing would be to say also that you think that he has great potential, but still some rough edges, in the nicest possible way. If you're hard on him, he may think well fk you man, look at yourself, or he may be very disheartened and down about it, where's if you chose your words more carefully, perhaps he can go away thinking, okay, well I've got some work to do, that's cool. That's why it'd be good if you be specific about the areas he needs to improve. If you're certain about ousting him, talk to him 1 to 1, not during a band practice or when you're all together.

[bear-foot-bass]

All the above comments are true and correct ... but in my experience if the singer's not up to scratch no will take the band seriously no matter how brilliant the musicians or songs are. Some originals singers can escape a bit because of stage prescence / character / great songs etc - think Bob Dylan. Theres nothing worse than getting to the end of a gig and trying to book another and the venue says 'great band, lousy singer' and you know in the back of your mind that they're right but you didn't want to bring it up earlier cos they're a mate or good guy.

So in the nicest possible way its time to get harsh or get out.

PS it's your time you put into practice, so it is your band.

PPS as its the brother of another member, get him to break the news

[Dusty]

[quote name='bear-foot-bass' date='Aug 23 2007, 10:18 PM' post='49838']
All the above comments are true and correct ... but in my experience if the singer's not up to scratch no will take the band seriously no matter how brilliant the musicians or songs are. Some originals singers can escape a bit because of stage prescence / character / great songs etc - think Bob Dylan. Theres nothing worse than getting to the end of a gig and trying to book another and the venue says 'great band, lousy singer' and you know in the back of your mind that they're right but you didn't want to bring it up earlier cos they're a mate or good guy.


Had a similar situation with our 'ex' singer at the beginning of the year. Lost one prestige, good paying gig that we had played many times due to the guvnor thinking the singer was crap, we put this down to the manager being a ars£hole, but then a few weeks later we lost a second even better gig due to the guvnor not liking the singer, in fact they would not let us play the second set ! In the heat of the moment the singer quit, which we accepted, he then spent weeks begging us to have him back !!
Problems were, He was/is a good singer, but the bands style had changed from Blues to Pub Covers, which he was not comfortable with. He was also a mate but not a good front man. It was hard for all of us.

[The Funk]

It can take a while for a singer to turn into a great frontman. For the first 6 months (could be an exaggeration) of The Doors, Jim Morrison gigged with his back to the crowd! Sting was chucked out of Last Exit because he asked if he could sing on a couple of tunes. Eric Clapton had to be coaxed into singing at all when he was in Cream. Donny Hathaway had to be forced into singing in public by Roberta Flack!

If you think your singer's singing is ok then get him to work on his weaknesses and improve.

[Mike]

Interesting, I was under the impression Sting left Last Exit voluntarily to go to London.

Incidentally, I shared a few beers with the gent who replaced Sting as the bassist in Last Exit in a pub in Scarborough!

[The Funk]

[quote name='Mike' post='50027' date='Aug 24 2007, 11:30 AM']Interesting, I was under the impression Sting left Last Exit voluntarily to go to London.[/quote]

Yes, did I say 'chucked out'? I should have said 'left'. I've met the lead singer of Last Exit and the story was basically that Sting wanted to sing a bit and the rest of the band hated his voice and said no. I think they all rated him as a bass player though - just hated his singing voice (which was nowhere near as developed as it'd later become).

[EntropicLqd]

One of the bands I'm in (Like Sheep) has a singer that's OK, but probably not as good as we'd like him to be.

We've all at some point (independantly) told him to get some singing lessons, but so far he's not listened.

The current plan is to keep him as he's not really holding the band back or anything. However, I am intending to get some singing lessons to see if I can become a better volcalist than him. Hopefully at that point he'll be shamed into getting some lessons, or perhaps I'll sing some of the songs he struggles with and he can buy a round of drinks.

But as everyone has mentioned, honesty is by far the best policy. And it's no help just saying, "you're crap - cherio". Giving them specific pointers in terms of what's wrong may actually give them the incentive to get it sorted.

Good luck anyway.

Edited August 24, 2007 by EntropicLqd

[lowhand_mike]

well we have another practice this monday and as per the bank holiday ritual the singer wont be there, we were going to go down anyway and brush up on certain songs (the drummer, who is actually a very good singer as well as drummer normally does some vocals) but the lead guitarist has a mate at work that has said he fancies having a go singing in a band and is supposed to be quite good so he's going to pop down to give a few songs a bash, might give the rythmn guitarist something to think about if hes any good. personally no idea what eh is like.
i never was going to be blunt, just was looking for pointers like have been given out.
personally i would like him to improve and it to carry on as is as they are a great bunch but who knows.

cheers guys

[ARGH]

Just be polite,straight..and direct. (and have a clear exit)

[bigd1]

if you have been in bands for as long as me......(long time) you do come across musicians who you think are not very good or as you put it suck. My way to deal with this is to tell the person in question they are not quite right for this band/ group but thank them for there time etc. They my be rubbish for you but in a different group/setting who knows. Never easy to get rid of someone but sometimes it needs to be done, but there is always a good way and a bad way. You could just YOU SUCK now F%CK O$F up to you as to what might be best. You choose.

[Tait]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='49676' date='Aug 23 2007, 05:08 PM']hehe, slight problem is that the rythmn guitarist is the singers brother and as its the singer i think it could cause problems.[/quote]

I'd start another band with the other members and also keep on with the origional band. Then slowly fade out the origional band by doing less and less practises.

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='ARGH' post='50414' date='Aug 24 2007, 10:19 PM']Just be polite,straight..and direct. (and have a clear exit)[/quote]
"...and bear in mind your nearest exit may be behind you..."

[Shockwave]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='50129' date='Aug 24 2007, 01:32 PM']well we have another practice this monday and as per the bank holiday ritual the singer wont be there, we were going to go down anyway and brush up on certain songs (the drummer, who is actually a very good singer as well as drummer normally does some vocals) but the lead guitarist has a mate at work that has said he fancies having a go singing in a band and is supposed to be quite good so he's going to pop down to give a few songs a bash, might give the rythmn guitarist something to think about if hes any good. personally no idea what eh is like.[/quote]

This is what happened to me twice, bringing in someone else behind my back. I was kept in an indie rock band because of upcoming high paying gigs for over a month whilst they kept "cancelling" practices but actually training someone else behind my back. But kept me on for those gigs. I was with them for 2 years, yet decided i wasent right for them. They may have been right but its a really sh*tty thing to do. It also happened again with a funk band i was with.

Its the shittiest thing you can ever do so for gods sakes tell your singer your trying someone else out or dump him before you try the new guy out.

Edited August 27, 2007 by Shockwave

[pauljdcooper]

i like to think you tell them they are not up to scratch anc have ..... (x weeks) to sort it or you will need to look for someone who can do what you need.

There is no real nice way but hey, people can get better with time or incentives (like getting sacked for the band).

[DaBassMonsta]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='51431' date='Aug 27 2007, 08:38 PM']This is what happened to me twice, bringing in someone else behind my back. I was kept in an indie rock band because of upcoming high paying gigs for over a month whilst they kept "cancelling" practices but actually training someone else behind my back. But kept me on for those gigs. I was with them for 2 years, yet decided i wasent right for them. They may have been right but its a really sh*tty thing to do. It also happened again with a funk band i was with.

Its the shittiest thing you can ever do so for gods sakes tell your singer your trying someone else out or dump him before you try the new guy out.[/quote]

Nobody tell Shockwave about the new forum OK?

Sorry...

I feel your pain on that one. Happened to me in my last band. An old friend of the guitarist was moving back to town and on arrival was coming straight into the band taking over bass duties from me leaving me just on vocal. To be fair, he was a better player and I was predominantly a singer anyway. Next practice and I'm fired from the band citing various reasons that were frankly bollocks. The main thing was the guitarist's ego didn't like me asking questions, having an opinion or making suggestions in [b]his[/b] band.

Four months later, they hadn't been able to replace me so they split.

I took a lot of crap in that band but when we played we could be damn good. If they'd all been upfront and honest who knows how we could have gone on.

[2wheeler]

Being "crap" is a bit vague. I would try to be specific about something you want that isn't happening at the moment. If they see that there's something they need to work on and can bridge the gap then the problem is sorted (provided it is just about technical stuff and not getting personal). If they understand the problem but don't want to do anything then you don't have to tell them they are crap, they have discovered it for themselves.

The problem is when they swear blind they they are in tune/on time/nailing the riffs/whatever and they really are not. Then you have to get rid of them, either the honest way, by telling them they are being replaced, or the sneaky way, by forming a new band without them.

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='Shockwave' post='51431' date='Aug 27 2007, 08:38 PM']This is what happened to me twice, bringing in someone else behind my back. I was kept in an indie rock band because of upcoming high paying gigs for over a month whilst they kept "cancelling" practices but actually training someone else behind my back. But kept me on for those gigs. I was with them for 2 years, yet decided i wasent right for them. They may have been right but its a really sh*tty thing to do. It also happened again with a funk band i was with.

Its the shittiest thing you can ever do so for gods sakes tell your singer your trying someone else out or dump him before you try the new guy out.[/quote]
well we didn't have the practice anyway, so that all fell flat, and i suppose i'm kind of releved. i would have liked to just hear someone else in the singing role even if it was just for a comparison.
i think my post title is a bit too strong for what i mean but it gets the idea across, i don't personally think he is truely awful but he can be flat at times (but then so can alot of the high paid ones)

it may just come down to leaving and setting up another band and in truth my main reason is i just really don't enjoy alot of the songs we do. They are your cover band classics but i'm playing so i can't complain too much.
it's been 3 weeks now with no practices so maybe they are auditioning another bassist