Is it just me or does the HX stomp sound rubbish???

[lobematt]

I've had the stomp for almost 4 years now and have had good results with it, mainly when using it in ampless situations, either recording or live.

 

Whenever I use it as part of my pedal board through an amp however, it adds a brittleness and a thin sound to my tone that I just can't put my finger on or get rid of. The best I found was when it was sandwiched between an analog compressor and a Sansamp, it still had a bit of that brittleness to it though.

 

I really want to get along with the Stomp but I just can't get a good sound out of it live, anyone else had similar problems to this? Anyone got any tips I can try to get a better tone out of it before I sell it??

 

Thanks!

[Al Krow]

That's a really interesting (and open and honest!) point you've raised. We had a similar experience with a former guitarist going through a HX Pod Go direct to the PA and getting a really brittle / harsh tone and given then higher frequency range for guitar, I suspect the brittleness we encountered was probably even more noticeable, but perhaps also maybe why the many HX Stomp bass playing users haven't previously commented on this point. 

 

Was wondering whether it might have been something that could be fixed by using one of the amp/cab sims on the Helix multifx - but I'm guessing you've pretty much tried them all?

[lobematt]

I've even tried running it in the chain with no blocks and it still has this digital vibe I can't quite put my finger on. I spent a lot of time messing with the various EQs and they didn't help either. This got me thinking about is it the input impedance or something else? I don't know. Should it be this hard to get some cool noises?!?

[fretmeister]

There's a couple of excellent facebook Helix for Bass groups.

Well worth posting questions on there. Lots of people gigging the entire helix line with a variety of amps / PA / FRFR etc.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/helixforbassists/

 

 

There's also Dr Tone Secret Bass lab

 

https://drtone.theblackcreekband.com/preset/

 

Lots of presets to try for all the HX kit.

[lobematt]

Thanks will post over on the FB group. I tried a lot of Dr Tones patches and found them all to be very hifi and digital sounding. I think he's really after that zingy Billy Sheehan thing though

[acidbass]

I love my Stomp and couldn't live without it!  Cleans up my tone massively before hitting my amp or IEMs.  If you are using it between comp and Sansamp - what is it you need it for?  As an effects box essentially?

[lobematt]

I wanted it to replace my sans amp comp but have brought them back to try and help things out. So yeah, now it's essentially just an effects box...

[SumOne]

I got that feeling about the sort of brittle sound too, even EQing the highs down it still felt it. Pehaps it is partly in the mind though as it looks like a cold bit of digital tech that would make sterile sounds, rather than something like a DHA valve pedal which feels like it'll add mojo? The Stomp's retro reel effect was good at giving mild saturation to sort of dampen harshness a bit. Also, I used a FEA Optifet compressor after the Stomp to slightly dampen the highs and I guess add an analogue sort of feel. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by SumOne

[Skybone]

Don't have a HX Stomp, but a POD Go, and run it into the Effects Return of my amp... sounds great to me. 

[lobematt]

I've ran it into the effects of my amp before experimenting with the preamp models but again, didn't have great results. Are you using preamp models or just fx?

[Beedster]

4 hours ago, SumOne said:

Pehaps it is partly in the mind though as it looks like a cold bit of digital tech that would make sterile sounds, rather than something like a DHA valve pedal which feels like it'll add mojo?

Yep, we hear with our eyes and our emotions more than we realise. I get it with strings a lot, swear I can hear a nasty overtone but in reality my brain’s focussing on and unconsciously amplifying a very small part of the overall sounds making me irritable and causing a viscous circle 👍 

[Skybone]

1 hour ago, lobematt said:

I've ran it into the effects of my amp before experimenting with the preamp models but again, didn't have great results. Are you using preamp models or just fx?

 

I'm running the preamp models with effects and an IR. Basically bypassing the amp's preamp.

[LukeFRC]

I lent mine to a guitarist mate.

the guys day job is sr audio engineer and now runs his own mastering business - I say this to point out he has v good ears.

 

he struggled with my stomp for a while, then something clicked and he sold thousands of pounds of effects and valve amps and is happy.

 

from memory he used a LPF in the master EQ to take off the very top end and then use a preferred IR at the end of his chain. ( I found it interesting that he had just one ir he uses )

[prowla]

I bought mine for occasional effects rather than the mainstay controller of all sounds and amp modelling.

One thing I did notice was that the thru sound (all switches off) drops in level, but I use it via loop switcher anyway, thereby bypassing (haha!) the issue.

(And yes, I did look at its level adjustments and so-on.)

That said, I do need to put some time into my pedal setup, as it's not come out of its case since the Bass Bash!

[Al Krow]

7 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

I lent mine to a guitarist mate.

the guys day job is sr audio engineer and now runs his own mastering business - I say this to point out he has v good ears.

 

he struggled with my stomp for a while, then something clicked and he sold thousands of pounds of effects and valve amps and is happy.

 

from memory he used a LPF in the master EQ to take off the very top end and then use a preferred IR at the end of his chain. ( I found it interesting that he had just one ir he uses )

 

That last point about using an LPF in the master EQ + preferred IR seems to me to exactly chime about what the OP is finding and we found with our guitarist with them both getting a harsh tone.  Maybe the core Helix tone is a harsh one, but can be sorted using exactly this fix?

[LukeFRC]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

That last point about using an LPF in the master EQ + preferred IR seems to me to exactly chime about what the OP is finding and we found with our guitarist with them both getting a harsh tone.  Maybe the core Helix tone is a harsh one, but can be sorted using exactly this fix?

He described it as fighting it for two weeks then it clicked. 
the problem the rest of us have is we don’t have his ears!! 

[fretmeister]

On 28/01/2023 at 15:38, Al Krow said:

 

That last point about using an LPF in the master EQ + preferred IR seems to me to exactly chime about what the OP is finding and we found with our guitarist with them both getting a harsh tone.  Maybe the core Helix tone is a harsh one, but can be sorted using exactly this fix?

 

The core helix tone is actually accurate - it's just that lots of amps properly modelled are harsh in themselves.

A raging Plexi is horribly harsh with new speakers. With old speakers and 20 metres of curly cable (lots of capacitance and high end roll off) they sound great.

 

I think a lot of cab sims and IRs are based on new speakers that haven't had time to calm down.

 

Getting the tone right is definitely about the HPF and LPF settings. Picking any amp and cab at random can be made to sound excellent by just experimenting with those filters. When people complain about it sounding "digital" what they are actually complaining about is accuracy in the model that we don't find appealing and that we are not used to. The fizz is there on real amps and L6 decided to do them accurately. Other modellers went for a glossed over approach.

 

Sometimes the HPF and LPF settings that work might seem to be excessive but controls are there to be used, and once it sounds good it doesn't matter how the result was reached.

[Muzz]

I've used my Stomp every gig now in a couple of years since I got it...it takes some experimentation (especially with compression and the LPF/HPFs), but I got it useable pretty quickly, and I've been refining it ever since...

[hamfist]

I used an HX Stomp into a clean amp and/or straight to FOH for about 3 years (with a passive PJ). No complaints from me. I loved it. It has weaknesses (poor synths being one) but lots of strengths. From memory I used to use the Multiband comp, only a pre-amp sim - no power amp sim (which added nothing positive to my ears).

  HPF of 35Hz. LPF of about 5.5KHz. Parallel paths to mix in some drive on upper frequencies (I forget which drive sim I used). The cab sims were mediocre, but I found one I really liked (unfortunately I forget which).

 

I do remember that I never found it played well with an outboard comp or an outboard drive. Horrible tone. For me I found it best by far used as a sole source of tone modification.

 

TBH I miss it.

Edited February 2, 2023 by hamfist

[la bam]

Having owned a stomp I'd honestly say theres too much choice and too many things to mess with that make you sound worse.

 

I never understood why the presets - or at least some of the presets - weren't designed for live work?

 

In a nutshell, I've just got a nux mld and once plugged in it's just a great sound. No messing or ruining the tone.

[Elfrasho]

I love my helix for bass, but probably even more for guitar.  But I do notice that gain staging is more important on helix than pretty much any other FX I've used. Less is more when it comes to gain on each block. Plus, use the global EQ and stick some low and high passes on if you havent already, Think mines set to 40hz and 8khz. Might seem a bit narrow but for live use it works a treat. On my guitar patches I low pass the IR's quite alot just to get that nasty tingle off them.

[fretmeister]

2 hours ago, la bam said:

Having owned a stomp I'd honestly say theres too much choice and too many things to mess with that make you sound worse.

 

I never understood why the presets - or at least some of the presets - weren't designed for live work?

 

In a nutshell, I've just got a nux mld and once plugged in it's just a great sound. No messing or ruining the tone.

same as all modellers and multi fx.

 

Most of the presets are there to demo the capability of the system rather than be useable.

[LiturghianPope]

Is it just the HX Stomp though?

 

I play in a three-piece metal band, both the guitarist and myself played on Helixes. At our first shows, people regarded our sound as 'thin'. After (another) hundred hours of adjusting tones we even obtained 'great tones' kind of feedback.

 

However, no matter what I did, I felt the sound to always be somehow...unsatisfying. I completely agree and understand those who say there's something wrong with it, something you can't 'really put your finger on it'. And don't get me wrong, I'm not some valve purist, nor am I a great audiophile, tone guru or audio engineer. Quite the contrary, actually - I am not very picky. All I wanted was a "normal" sound, which I heard whenever I connected to a guitar or bass amp, a simple, normal and yet satisfying sound that somehow I never managed to obtain with the Helix.

 

I spent hundreds of hours trying various effect combinations and setups, online presets and IR's. Every time I spent more than 20-30 minutes setting up an effect, my ears would get tired and I started perceiving the preset as being 'good'. Next day at rehearsals, my ears would bleed with disappointment and desperation, as it always seemed to me as if the effect is some sort of joke, a parody of what I thought I obtained the previous day setting up the preset.

 

What I found strange was that the the more unnatural and illogical the preset, the better it seemed to sound. Sometimes placing a cab before the amp or having a split signal from the amp that bypasses the cab and goes in the output through a distortion pedal seemed to actually make a desired effect. The simple presets sounded rubbish. And it was those that I wanted to sound good - I didn't want any intricate signal chains. Just a simple, plain pedal > amp > cab thing. But something always seemed to be off...

 

My rehearsal room setup was guitar/bass > Helix LT > mixer > PA. And that was the problem.

 

Just because you can simulate the sound of an Ampeg or whatever, it doesn't mean it will sound like an Ampeg. If you don't have a high end mixer/PA, it will absolutely, and without any doubt, not sound like one (maybe even sound just plain bad, like it happened to me). So no, your guitar will not sound as if you actually own a Mesa Boogie, if you have a major bottleneck. It is not 'ignorable'. It is not 'secondary'. If you think you're getting a Helix and you're gonna sound great no matter what, then you might as well buy some subscriptions to 'how to play guitar like a pro in 30 days' programs. And in the next month maybe 'become a programmer' and 'build muscle like a bodybuilder'. Hope I'm making myself clear - the Helix alone is not a shortcut, not in the way that it seems to be when you put it into words such as 'it simulates a darkglass connected to a valve markbass and a 8 x 10 cab'. The tone might sound great at some venues (or, of course, open-air festivals where they have high-end equipment), but the sound might vary greatly between the rehearsal room and live sound.

 

I had times when on certain mixers and PA's I was surprised on how well it sounds, and times when I just wanted to smash it with a blunt object. I made the mistake of thinking that if I buy this rather expensive piece of equipment, I could get away with it but I learned the hard way this is not the case. I found it to be too much of a struggle for me, and that it implied other investments to make it work the way it makes you believe it should work.

 

To me, it was too much of a headache. But as a conclusion, to anyone struggling with the tone and having the same experience I do, consider the other equipment in the signal chain - are they of equal or higher value, worth thousands, or are they cheap stuff bottlenecking, giving you nightmares?  Maybe this is 'that thing on which you can't really put your finger on' - the hope that a thousand dollars (or whatever version of Helix we're talking about) piece of equipment, will sound as good as a $5000 setup.

 

I think that no one will ever buy a real amp and cab again if somehow this promise (if I may) of "simulating other amps and cabs" would work as intended, without requiring other high-end investments. I hope that day comes.

[fretmeister]

A lot of the misunderstanding about modellers is shown by the last post ^.

 

Modellers do not claim to be the same as an amp in the room. Only an actual amp can do that so far.

 

Modellers generate the sound of that amp after it has been mic'd up. That is a massive difference. A raging JCM800 in a room sounds like a bomb going off. A raging JCM800 with a couple of mic's in front of it and then into the PA (or into a recording setup) still sounds great, but doesn't have that visceral feel that you get when standing in front of the speakers.

 

Modellers are designed to get the best recording sound or the best Front of House live sound. They are not designed to give the "amp in the room" thing because that's just about impossible at the moment because of the nature of cab sims and IRs. Cabs / IRs are made by using microphones and thus whatever sound you get it has been through a mic set up. That is where the difference is. 

 

You can get more of an amp in the room feel if you are willing to do it halfway. Modeller, into a valve power amp, then into a traditional speaker cab for your on-stage tones, and then use other outputs with an IR / Cab sim to the desk. You won't be able to change the cab on your stage sound but you will for the FOH sound, DSP permitting. The on stage rig is your monitor and you can have that gutterall feel, and the crowd still get the best mix due to the more controlled modeller / IR signal path. 

 

Loads of pros do it this way - even Metallica who do direct to the PA all the time now with the Fractal units still have a power amp and a couple of 4x12 cabs on stage for personal monitors and for feedback generation.

 

IRs and cab sims are not single items. They are a multi parameter signal chain of their own. Say (1) V30 into (2) Royer 121 mic set (3) 1 inch from the cone but (4) at a 45 degree angle aimed at (5) the edge of the dust cap.

 

Until there is a physical speaker that can change characteristics to move from an old Jensen to a V30, to an EV etc the best that can be done is a simulation of the cab with a load of different mics and mic placements.

 

Even if this fantasy speaker could ever be built you still wouldn't want the same microphones (for the FOH desk) for all the possible settings, just like you might like a SM57 on a V30, you might want a 121 on a Jensen.

 

 

[LiturghianPope]

5 hours ago, fretmeister said:

A lot of the misunderstanding about modellers is shown by the last post ^.

 

Modellers do not claim to be the same as an amp in the room. Only an actual amp can do that so far.

 

Modellers generate the sound of that amp after it has been mic'd up. That is a massive difference. A raging JCM800 in a room sounds like a bomb going off. A raging JCM800 with a couple of mic's in front of it and then into the PA (or into a recording setup) still sounds great, but doesn't have that visceral feel that you get when standing in front of the speakers.

 

Modellers are designed to get the best recording sound or the best Front of House live sound. They are not designed to give the "amp in the room" thing because that's just about impossible at the moment because of the nature of cab sims and IRs. Cabs / IRs are made by using microphones and thus whatever sound you get it has been through a mic set up. That is where the difference is. 

 

You can get more of an amp in the room feel if you are willing to do it halfway. Modeller, into a valve power amp, then into a traditional speaker cab for your on-stage tones, and then use other outputs with an IR / Cab sim to the desk. You won't be able to change the cab on your stage sound but you will for the FOH sound, DSP permitting. The on stage rig is your monitor and you can have that gutterall feel, and the crowd still get the best mix due to the more controlled modeller / IR signal path. 

 

Loads of pros do it this way - even Metallica who do direct to the PA all the time now with the Fractal units still have a power amp and a couple of 4x12 cabs on stage for personal monitors and for feedback generation.

 

IRs and cab sims are not single items. They are a multi parameter signal chain of their own. Say (1) V30 into (2) Royer 121 mic set (3) 1 inch from the cone but (4) at a 45 degree angle aimed at (5) the edge of the dust cap.

 

Until there is a physical speaker that can change characteristics to move from an old Jensen to a V30, to an EV etc the best that can be done is a simulation of the cab with a load of different mics and mic placements.

 

Even if this fantasy speaker could ever be built you still wouldn't want the same microphones (for the FOH desk) for all the possible settings, just like you might like a SM57 on a V30, you might want a 121 on a Jensen.

 

 

 

True words - "amp in the room feel" - not getting that through processor.

 

Also true - the modelers do not "claim" to be the same as an amp (in the room). I think that it should be a warning label on the packaging. It should be the opening phrase for all Youtube demos. It's what I'm trying to say but in fewer, better words: "Warning: despite simulating an amp and cab, it will not sound like the actual thing, only with great effort, knowledge, investments and in certain circumstances. Study some engineering first. Do not rely solely on it for your hobby band. It is not a plug-and-play device as an actual amp. Buy at your own risk and lower your expectations". 

 

So yeah, I agree, it is widely misunderstood. I misunderstood. Just a heads-up to anyone that expects from it what it seems to be at first glance. It's not a miraculous piece of equipment, but rather a difficult to use, highly professional one, suited for certain uses.

 

But I've also seen people satisfied by it's sound, using it exactly the same way I did. So yeah, I guess it's also a matter of taste...? Is it...?