Is it just me or does the HX stomp sound rubbish???

[fretmeister]

Definitely a matter of taste and they do need learning more than an old fashioned rig.

 

I don't think a warning is needed against something that isn't claimed. It's clearly not an amplifier. If anything most people think of the modellers as a multi-fx and that is wrong too. And it will sound like an amp and cab that is mic'd up.

With many bands moving to In Ear Monitors the people on stage are only hearing a mic'd up sound anyway.

 

I don't think it is any more difficult than using other kit that was designed this century. PC plug-ins / DAW / Tablet controlled PA systems etc. But it still needs a bit of time

 

I swapped to Helix very soon after launch - so about 6 years ago. I use it for almost everything live guitar and bass, sometimes live vocals. The only gig I don't use it for is my jazz big band because we don't have a PA at all. 20+ trumpets, trombones, saxophones, clarinets, etc etc + drums and an electric piano is very loud without needing a PA. I take a head and cab for that.

 

But everything else is helix - it's also my recording interface and my day-to-day sound card. I don't even own a guitar amp anymore and in the past I was the guy that always bought a JCM800 or a Mesa Dual Rec even for a 50 person Tuesday night gig!

 

I think it's amazing but that doesn't mean it's the right thing for everyone.

 

The main bits of advice I can give for people struggling with it are:

 

1: Design your sounds at full gig volume. The stuff that sounds great in the house will sound like crap at gig volume mixed with other instruments. Have a rehearsal specifically for getting that right.

 

2: The HPF and LPF controls are often where the magic is found. They remove the flub and the fizz.

 

3: Professional FOH engineers who work in a lot in a location will keep records, or if the kit is modern enough, save their basic settings for a specific venue as a starting point. All the new generation modellers have more than enough memory slots to save venue specific patches. When you take a Marshall from the 250 person pub gig into a 1000 person hall you don't use the same settings so you can't expect that from any modeller either. But unlike the Marshall, if you play at that venue a lot, you can save a template for that venue to make soundcheck far easier next time.

 

I love standing in front of a big amp with a big cab. It's a great feeling. But some amazing cabs that retail at £1000 or more can be bought for peanuts on ebay because the world has moved on. Everything goes in the PA, IEM keep the stage volume down, and the FOH guy can make a far better mix when he hasn't got to deal with mic spill and unwanted feedback.

 

It might not be as rock n roll as it used to be, but the audience get a far better sound than ever before. Our hearing might last a bit longer too.

[prowla]

At https://line6.com/hx-stomp/ Line6 say:

Quote

The HX Stomp™ amp and effects processor may be used as a “super stompbox,” a backup or travel rig, an add-on tone expander with other modelers, an audio interface—or a complete guitar or bass rig.

and

Quote

Each stage of an amp’s circuitry is measured and the results matched to the original during the modeling process, ensuring realistic sound and an authentic playing experience.

So, you could be forgiven for taking exception to there being significant discrepancies in the sound...

[fretmeister]

24 minutes ago, prowla said:

At https://line6.com/hx-stomp/ Line6 say:

and

So, you could be forgiven for taking exception to there being significant discrepancies in the sound...

 

 

The golden age of amps was also the most random. 2 same model amps built next to each other sounded different. Component tolerances were nowhere near as good as they are now.

 

For all the latest modellers there is a Plexi, or an SVT, or a B15, or a Twin that sounds identical to the ones in the modeller (when mic'd up) because that's what was used as the reference amp. 

 

The reason why a Helix Plexi sounds different to a Fractal or Kemper Plexi isn't because 2 of them have got it wrong - it's because their reference amps sounded different in the first place.

 

This is also why those who get the best results out of a modeller throw away consideration of a model based on what inspired it. Just because the real Dual Rec I had was amazing doesn't mean that the Helix model of a Dual Rec sounds the same and I might get a better result with a different model, and as it happens I do.

Ignore the model names and trust the ears.

[LiturghianPope]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

I love standing in front of a big amp with a big cab. It's a great feeling. But some amazing cabs that retail at £1000 or more can be bought for peanuts on ebay because the world has moved on. Everything goes in the PA, IEM keep the stage volume down, and the FOH guy can make a far better mix when he hasn't got to deal with mic spill and unwanted feedback.

 

It might not be as rock n roll as it used to be, but the audience get a far better sound than ever before. Our hearing might last a bit longer too.

 

Well you certainly make it sound in a way that makes me regret giving up the Helix. Maybe one day I'll try it again or a different processor, with different gear.

 

But I must admit - the major problem wasn't on the FOH side, at least according to the audience, but rather rehearsals and monitoring which made me never know how my tone actually sounds like.

 

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

1: Design your sounds at full gig volume. The stuff that sounds great in the house will sound like crap at gig volume mixed with other instruments. Have a rehearsal specifically for getting that right.

 

+1 certainly encountered this

 

2 hours ago, fretmeister said:

I swapped to Helix very soon after launch - so about 6 years ago. I use it for almost everything live guitar and bass, sometimes live vocals. The only gig I don't use it for is my jazz big band because we don't have a PA at all. 20+ trumpets, trombones, saxophones, clarinets, etc etc + drums and an electric piano is very loud without needing a PA. I take a head and cab for that.

 

So please, do tell me - when using it for guitar/bass, at rehearsals, what do you plug it in? What's your setup?

 

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, LiturghianPope said:

 

Well you certainly make it sound in a way that makes me regret giving up the Helix. Maybe one day I'll try it again or a different processor, with different gear.

 

But I must admit - the major problem wasn't on the FOH side, at least according to the audience, but rather rehearsals and monitoring which made me never know how my tone actually sounds like.

 

 

+1 certainly encountered this

 

 

So please, do tell me - when using it for guitar/bass, at rehearsals, what do you plug it in? What's your setup?

 

the rehearsal studio PA system, whatever it is.

 

I did have a Yamaha DXR10 for a while as a personal monitor and that was very good for guitar and bass but tech has moved on and I’m sure there are more modern units.

 

A few guitarists I know really like the Red Sound powered units but they are guitar only. Not tried one myself yet.

 

I’m in the process of exploring forming a new rock band with some friends and I’m thinking of helix with a power amp into a Barefaced cab. The 12inch cabs are suggested by Barefaced to be a great choice for modelling units as they are very flat response. I have a Super Twin but I’ve never actually tried it with the helix yet! Haven’t needed to. But for the rock band - probably going to be a power trio - I might want a physical cab for feedback options instead of IEM.

 

But we haven’t decided what to do about PA yet. Buy or hire as needed etc. Or just try for support gigs for a while to use the headliner’s PA to see if the band actually lasts! 

[MrDinsdale]

I loved the Boss GTK core, much less variety compared to the Helix but you could get great sounds.

 

I ran it into my FX return on my head and it was great live, got the amp in the room feeling while still having a solid FOH sound. I've since gone back to just my amp and analog pedals but thats more because it fits my current project better and I wasn't using anything but compression and drives.
 

There are so many big names using this kind of gear I don't think the "Modellers/MFX units sound rubbish" comments hold much water. They're not right for everyone but when deployed effectively they're incredibly powerful tools for live shows and recording. When used well they're pretty indistinguishable from the real thing, certainly for the audience.

[fretmeister]

I've not tried the newest Boss units but the demos sound great.

I don't think any of the latest generation modellers are bad. They've all got little things that a player might like more, but you really can't go wrong with any of them.

[fretmeister]

These are a couple of Helix tone tests I did for 2 new songs I've written.

 

Drums are from EZD2 and all guitars and bass are Helix.

 

I think they sound pretty good. They are not mastered and only barely mixed.

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/user-107940438/voice-of-derrière-riff-test/s-a3AKWXWGXue?si=40238d6462954e53b4e9d3a669c4a713&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

 

 

https://soundcloud.com/user-107940438/specific-ocean-tone-test-1/s-uYCoJKFUgcE?si=40238d6462954e53b4e9d3a669c4a713&utm_source=clipboard&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=social_sharing

 

[Sibob]

When I got my HX Stomp, it wasn’t to replace my main setup, but for a few reasons:

 

1) ‘Fly-rig’ for gigs that require a much smaller setup.

2) Backup for my main board should something go awry that takes it out the game for a few gigs. Unlikely but whatever haha.

3) While I’m almost always going to use analogue drive and octave pedals, I’m ok with digital everything else….so it was a way to sell all of my random reverb/delay/chorus singles and use the HX Stomp for weirdness/modulation….which is where it shines IMO.

4) As a way of adding a cab sim to my mix when I do the odd gig with a band that uses IEM’s.

 

So for points 1 and 2, I spent quite a long time tweaking the various patches to accurately match my main pedalboard, I had them side by side and would flip between the two. Because I know my main board sounds perfect in a gig setting, it meant that I’m referencing what I know I like tonally and not just trying set up the HX blindly with sounds that work through my headphones in my lounge. I remember thinking ‘oh that’s not how I would have it naturally…’, but trusting that my reference point (main board) was true, so just run with it. Lo and behold, tested he HX on a gig, and I was happy with how it performed.

 

Si

Edited February 7, 2023 by Sibob

[jimfist]

@fretmeister hits the nail on the head on all of this. 

@lobematt @LiturghianPope I also agree with your sentiment regarding the additional proper gear needed to create fully modeled amp tones with cabinet IR included.

In addition to having a proper, powerful full-range speaker system at your disposal, so that you can monitor at gig-worthy volume, it also helps immensely to have not only lots of gig experience in a lot of different sized venues, but audio engineering/mixing chops (they go a long way to sorting this stuff out).

 

-  Speaking for myself, I have probably mixed as many live shows as I've performed (+/-200 mixing or performing gigs/year for a few decades). Having a solid foundation in the live mixing world was really the thing that allowed me to get along with full-blown modeling, understanding the challenges of sound reinforcement.

As for creating the sounds (usually at home), I use an Atomic CLR full-range cabinet (it rolls-off below 80Hz) cranked up pretty loud (wife and kids not home). The accuracy of the speaker is the key, and any worthy full-range, relatively flat response speaker system doesn't come cheap, unfortunately.

 

-  Experience has shown me that if my sounds work on the CLR, then they'll work well for most situations with very little front-of-house tweaking necessary. I also realized long ago that the tones that can work on the gig may not sound quite like you'd think when isolated: for me, more "bite", less sub-low bass.

As for the stage, I carry a GK1001RBII and either a pair of passive Atomic CLR cabs, or one or two ported full-range cabinets loaded with 15" coaxial (bi-amped) Ciare drivers. This all cost a pretty penny, too.

 

-  Since my stage rig is pretty much just for me and near proximity monitoring (for bandmates) I use my GK head as a clean amp that I can EQ for the specific environment at hand. The FOH mixer can worry about the rest of it...that's their job, and I've done all I can do to help them at that point.

When there is no FOH provided, my stage amp(s) sound every bit as good as any other traditional rig I've ever had.

 

- This was not an easy process. It cost me countless hours and a heap of coin to get to the point where things have settled in. Fortunately, the modeling tech gets better and better, but the aspects of proper monitoring to suss out your bass tone at gig levels is a necessary given.

 

It most definitely can be a discouraging process, but IMHO full digital modeling of tones has come of age for guitarists AND bassists.  If it floats your boat, keep at it and hopefully you'll find your way to unlocking it, mysterious as it may be.

Edited February 8, 2023 by jimfist

[GeorgeLawton94]

• Had the exact same thing, the new Noble preamp copy has done a lot to improve the E and A string. However the D and G string have no weight and popping etc - jesus does it bite out. Brittle is an accurate word.
  
  Best results were funnily enough on an ampless gig I did in Manchester last night:
  
  REGAL DI (Noble) > Woody Blue amp > LA Comp (1176) 
  
  If anyone has any suggestions for trying to balance it so the D and G are more usable and those aggressive highs can be tamed - i'm all ears!

[LukeFRC]

Umm

Edited March 15 by LukeFRC
Have you ever posted in a thread, and then scrolled back later and realise you said the exact same thing 2 months previously but forgot?

[ratman]

Try using the Regal by itself. The Noble is a DI after all.
When the Regal was released recently I tried it with my tried & trusted Bassman-IR-Para EQ preset that I’ve been using for a while. I wasn’t impressed. Then I tried using the Regal block by itself, and it sounded really good. So much so, that it’s my go to sound now.
I have a Japanese FSR Mustang that I was about to sell here which now sounds better than I’ve ever heard it. I’m not selling it now. I’ve actually had several musicians & engineers comment on my tone since I switched to the Regal. 

Edited March 15 by ratman

[lidl e]

I played my buddy's and was very impressed.

 

Funnily enough, this was just posted and hus sounds he's getting are killer.

 

 

 

 

[prowla]

25 minutes ago, lidl e said:

I played my buddy's and was very impressed.

 

Funnily enough, this was just posted and hus sounds he's getting are killer.

 

 

 

 

The ones with the fake drums louder than the bass really detract from the demo.

Overall the sounds weren't bad and pretty much covered what I'd use it for - a replacement for a load of sounds which can be used for effect rather than as an alwaye-on/preamp unit.

I have mine in a switcher loop so it's out of circuit when not being used.

[Boodang]

I noticed Gwizdala uses a stomp and, as it happens, sells the preset settings on his site. I've never used a stomp but two things occurred.... firstly that Gwizdala must have got to grips with the thing, and secondly, might be worth looking at the presets to see how he approaches it.

[BigRedX]

TBH I have found other people's presets mostly useless because they are only one part of the overall sound.

 

About 6 months ago Line6 were offering Peter Hook's main Helix patch as a download. I have to say that as a fan and someone whose current baselines are extremely influenced by his playing I was somewhat underwhelmed. I'm sure the patch works perfectly well for him, but in my case the one I had come up with on my own that uses the same type of modules (distortion, chorus and delay) as he does, but completely different actual models works much better for me.

[fretmeister]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

TBH I have found other people's presets mostly useless because they are only one part of the overall sound.

 

About 6 months ago Line6 were offering Peter Hook's main Helix patch as a download. I have to say that as a fan and someone whose current baselines are extremely influenced by his playing I was somewhat underwhelmed. I'm sure the patch works perfectly well for him, but in my case the one I had come up with on my own that uses the same type of modules (distortion, chorus and delay) as he does, but completely different actual models works much better for me.

 

Agreed.

 

The only artist patch I though was any good was Jeff Waters guitar patch that was included in an update a few years ago. I'm a fan of Annihilator and initially I wasn't that impressed.

 

Then I read some L6 posts and it turned out it was a recording patch rather than a live patch. So I recorded a few things with it - not adjusting anything at all - and then double tracked it properly. It then sounded fantastic. Thick and full, but with loads of articulation.

 

His EQ and relatively low drive settings were the secret.

[LiturghianPope]

On 21/03/2024 at 18:16, fretmeister said:

 

Agreed.

 

The only artist patch I though was any good was Jeff Waters guitar patch that was included in an update a few years ago. I'm a fan of Annihilator and initially I wasn't that impressed.

 

Then I read some L6 posts and it turned out it was a recording patch rather than a live patch. So I recorded a few things with it - not adjusting anything at all - and then double tracked it properly. It then sounded fantastic. Thick and full, but with loads of articulation.

 

His EQ and relatively low drive settings were the secret.

 

Sounds interesting, you're hinting at the fact that when you're designing a tone you shouldn't just "use your ears" but rather anticipate the way it's going to be integrated in the whole mix. Something I'm actively trying to figure out and be increasingly more aware of. I actually always found it inconvenient when I was encouraged to focus on what I hear, because that differs according to how much and what I've listened to lately, the room, the time of day, how tired I am and what I ate.

 

But I'm intrigued, do you have any exports of such recordings? Did you use his pickups or similar ones? I mean, as many others, when I use presets (doesn't matter the context - guitar, bass, helix, VST, whatever) they're not even close to sounding "normal" or "acceptable" let alone "good". I end up adjusting them to the point they're nowhere near the original.

[Jackopie1]

So I've been thinking about getting a Stomp. Play in functions and corporate setups mostly. Almost always go d.i.

 

The idea was to have a tuner, pre-amp, and maybe a couple of effects there - octaver, filter - in a box easy to just grab and go, with the bonus of some fun sounds to play around with for a couple of original projects. Also, I'm in need of a portable audio interface.

 

Not a massive effects snob, and use them fairly sparingly.

 

Play with IEMs, so used to not having that anp-in-a-room sound on gigs, and engineers almost always provide a d.i. box, so not too fussed about no XLR.

 

It seems like it would be ideal, but some posts about that digital sound are making me hesitate. Would it work well for this situation?

 

[LukeFRC]

16 minutes ago, Jackopie1 said:

So I've been thinking about getting a Stomp. Play in functions and corporate setups mostly. Almost always go d.i.

 

The idea was to have a tuner, pre-amp, and maybe a couple of effects there - octaver, filter - in a box easy to just grab and go, with the bonus of some fun sounds to play around with for a couple of original projects. Also, I'm in need of a portable audio interface.

 

Not a massive effects snob, and use them fairly sparingly.

 

Play with IEMs, so used to not having that anp-in-a-room sound on gigs, and engineers almost always provide a d.i. box, so not too fussed about no XLR.

 

It seems like it would be ideal, but some posts about that digital sound are making me hesitate. Would it work well for this situation?

 

Perfectly 

[prowla]

I'd check out how the Stomp does your clean signal.

I don't think I could have one as a single pedal; I have mine in a loop which can be switched in for effects, but is out of the way otherwise.

[ratman]

2 hours ago, Jackopie1 said:

It seems like it would be ideal, but some posts about that digital sound are making me hesitate. Would it work well for this situation?

 

A Stomp will be perfect for your needs. And they sound great if you take the time to dial in your sounds. 

[Jackopie1]

3 hours ago, prowla said:

I'd check out how the Stomp does your clean signal.

I don't think I could have one as a single pedal; I have mine in a loop which can be switched in for effects, but is out of the way otherwise.

I don't think I'd ever bypass it, more likely have a preamp or amp always enabled, and switch on effects as and when.

 

Do you not like the preamp/amp sounds into a d.i.?  Cheers.

[LiturghianPope]

3 hours ago, Jackopie1 said:

It seems like it would be ideal, but some posts about that digital sound are making me hesitate.

 

I owned a Helix LT, struggled for years with it, with tons of settings and presets which always sounded wrong in one way or the other - but I didn't understand it's purpose and limitations, I was expecting amp-in-the-room sound. I admit that I didn't know how to properly use it and never mastered it, despite spending hundreds of hours tweaking it. Numerous times I thought I've finally managed to create a proper tone just to return a day later to the rehearsal room and be horrified by it. "That" sound was always there - it wasn't the amp I used, the cab or the eq settings.

 

I'm just stating my experience with it. I guess we've all seen bands sounding both good and bad with digitals, and it's amusing and sad when members are enthusiastic of their digital gear, its ease of use and light logistics etc. and then your ears get pierced FOH with unintelligible tones. Also I'm referring mostly to metal and therefore heavy distortion. What I'm trying to say is that I've failed (and witnessed others failing as well) in making digital gear sound "normal" (not even good, just plain normal, if that's an accepted term in this context). I guess that was also the premise of the thread, right?