Stage monitoring

[Phil Adams]

Hi folks, I wonder if I could pick your brains please?

I’ve just thrown some money at a pair of Subzero floor monitors active monitors. They’re only 10”, but I though a pair might be just the job, at something like 12kg each they’re kinder to my old back than a single 15 would be. They are both active, I don’t have the cables to drive then both yet as I need XLRs so I’ve tried one on it’s own, with everything on “11” it’s not loud  enough to scare a mouse. I’ve tried my acoustic bass which has a preamp in it, and it’s VERY LOUD, but I shouldn’t have to buy an active electric bass to get them to be usable, or should I? They might be loud enough for guitar or vocal, but I can’t believe they will do what I want them to without a pre amp. Any thought please?

only talking pubs and clubs, just, I have a quite loud backline and I find that if I’m loud enough to head the rig behind me, them I’m loud enough out front to stop women going in the ladies because the walls are rattling, (apparently true).

as fun as it would be to clear out my passive basses, and get active ones, I somehow think that’s not the right answer. 
to try to define it properly, my front room, monitor with everything on max, passive bass on max, nice full sound, but Mrs Phil upstairs couldn’t hear it! 
thanks 👍🏻

Edited February 1, 2023 by Phil Adams

[skidder652003]

https://www.gear4music.com/Guitar-and-Bass/Behringer-BDI21-V-Tone-Bass-Preamp/6LV?origin=product-ads&gclid=CjwKCAiAuOieBhAIEiwAgjCvcmPYNB5ds9ryUEFznicagV14dB5fcHVnRF6dmRnxHpQu1KYIH7RftRoCzt4QAvD_BwE

[Jakester]

Silly question, but are they both active? Or is one active, one passive (powered off the active)?

 

If both active, have you got the input set to line or mic? If it's set to line, try changing it to mic - it might make a real difference as the amp in the monitor when set to line is expecting a louder signal. 

 

TBH though, if you're using them for bass monitoring, I'm not sure 10" floor monitors (and in particular Sub Zero, being G4M's budget brand) would necessarily be up to the job. I'd say their specs would be *very* optimistic in terms of both bass response and overall "power" (see infinite threads here about RMS, power etc etc). 

 

They'll probably be fine for reproducing vox or guitars, but probably not powerful enough to accurately reproduce your bass. 

[Phil Starr]

Check that you are switched to mic rather than line as Jakester has said. 

[jrixn1]

What make/model is your very loud backline?  If it's loud enough to fill the venue but you can't hear it well yourself, the first advice is usually to tilt or raise it.  The potential problem with your proposal to run backline and two monitors all at the same time in a small venue is that you'll have bass coming from three sources bouncing around all over the place and it will sound muddy/indistinct.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Even worse, multiple sources playing low frequencies may cancel each other. Besides, what you don't need from monitors is lows. You need mids and highs, especially if your backline isn't aimed at your ears and the mids and highs from it are passing you by below the belt.

[Huge Hands]

How are you connecting your 1 speaker?  Are you using an XLR to jack lead?  Is the jack lead mono (tip/sleeve) or stereo (tip/ring/sleeve)?

 

I don't know the G4M Sub Zero range but I assume the XLR inputs on your speakers will be set up to expect balanced line level signals.  You standard passive bass gives out unbalanced instrument level,  so ideally you need a the very least a DI box inbetween the guitar out and the speaker.   

 

The acoustic bass preamp I assume has an XLR out or may be managing to balance over a TRS jack? 

[Phil Adams]

Thanks for the replies folks. Some interesting food for thought. I will try to answer some of the points raised. 
the pair of monitors are both active. I haven’t run them as a pair yet as I don’t have the correct cables. I tried each of them as a bass amp, ie bass plugged into the line in via jack. I can certainly try going though the mic input but will need an xlr to Jack lead which I don’t have atm.

my backline is nothing spectacular, a 400 watt solid state amp into a 2x10, and a 1x15 firing straight at my bum! I thought the monitors would help me hear myself without the need to have the backline too loud. I was intending to split the signal from the guitar between the bass amp and the monitors by using the two jack outputs on my Boss ME 50B. 

[Downunderwonder]

35 minutes ago, Phil Adams said:

bass plugged into the line in via jack

That's your problem. Bass pickups are a fraction of the output that it is expecting at the Line Input.

 

How come you aren't looking to use the ME50B thing for this?

 

Turning the 210 up on end so it's tall might be all you need to hear yourself properly.

Edited February 1, 2023 by Downunderwonder

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

4 hours ago, Phil Adams said:

firing straight at my bum!

That's why you can't hear it. Why do you think the monitors are tilted upward?

[Downunderwonder]

Aimed at bum suggests set like so:

 

O o o    all side by side or

 

o o

 O    Not what you want to hear yourself.

 

o

o

O  is what you want 

 

[Huge Hands]

11 hours ago, Phil Adams said:

 I tried each of them as a bass amp, ie bass plugged into the line in via jack. I can certainly try going though the mic input but will need an xlr to Jack lead which I don’t have atm.

 

Hi Phil, I personally would avoid the XLR to jack lead, I just assumed that is how you were doing it.  My advice would be to use a DI box or some sort of preamp that turns your instrument level output into a line level input signal for your speaker.

 

I don't know if this is relevant but years ago I had an Ashdown 2x10 and 1x15 stack that I used to run as 15 on the bottom, 10s horizontal on top for bigger gigs.   Most of the time I just used the 2x10 (combo) on its own and the sound was great, but with the 1x 15 added I often found the sound would not be right and feel like there was a big "hole" in the sound if I stood in front of my stack.  I will defer to @Bill Fitzmaurice's  much superior knowledge than mine as I know I have discussed this with him before, but I believe what I was hearing (or not) could have been down to comb filtering effects caused by having mismatched driver sizes.   I'm sure he can explain it a lt better than me but thought this might also be a part of why you are having issues with hearing your backline?

[Phil Adams]

Thanks again chaps, I’m digesting all these views. I did consider swapping out the 2x10 for a 4x10. What really opened my eyes, and ears, was a gig in a stall venue before Christmas, where a couple of ladies from the audience wanted to sing, so I sat on a stool in front of my rig and played,  the difference in what I could hear was pleasantly staggering.

I remember watching a band playing outdoors  in Holland a few years ago. The bass player had his rig so his top speaker was at head height, and he had his ear against it. 
I’ve tried running a bass through the ME50B and into the monitor, and it hasn’t made much if any difference. 
I think perhaps a DI box could be the answer. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, Huge Hands said:

 I believe what I was hearing (or not) could have been down to comb filtering effects caused by having mismatched driver sizes.  

That wouldn't be caused by the different driver sizes but by different phase responses. At frequencies where they differ at or close to 180 degrees apart they cancel. This scenario is one reason why well engineered systems never use different drivers in the same passband. Comb filtering is a related effect. It's when wave fronts from multiple sources meet at or near 180 degrees apart causing cancellation notches that alternately occur and disappear as one goes across the sound field. The primary cause is placing drivers side by side. The easiest cure is don't place drivers side by side. If you must do so the fix is to low pass one driver, or one side of a 4x,6x or 8x cab, so that they only work in tandem in the lows where comb filtering doesn't occur, and not in the mids and highs where it does. It's a simple inexpensive fix, known as an x.1 alignment, that's been used for at least fifty years by PA designers. AFAIK the only bass cabs that use it are Barefaced.

 

Quote

What really opened my eyes, and ears, was a gig in a stall venue before Christmas, where a couple of ladies from the audience wanted to sing, so I sat on a stool in front of my rig and played,  the difference in what I could hear was pleasantly staggering.

What happened there was you had a boundary reflection sourced low frequency cancellation zone on stage, where you were close to boundaries. Out in the audience away from those boundaries you don't have those cancellations, so the lows are louder there. If being where you were also put the cab on axis with your ears as it always should be the mids and highs would have been louder and more clear as well. The cure is to do your sound check listening out in the audience, adjusting both volume and EQ accordingly. Whatever that results in on stage you live with.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[tauzero]

The ME50B won't make a difference as the output is at the same level as the input - about 150mV peak to peak signal, whereas the line in is expecting 1V peak to peak. How are you proposing to drive the monitors when using them as monitors?

[Chienmortbb]

The Jack input will be TRS as per a mic, but should accept a standard TS or mono jack plug. It will not be as loud as if you are using a mic, as you lose 6dB going unbalanced. In addition, this is NOT am instrument input so will be low impedance. That will load your passive bass, loosing even more volume. You need a preamp of some sort like the BDI21 shown above or a DI out from your amp.

[Phil Adams]

Thanks agin folks. Mr Amazon will be rushing me a cheap Behringer active preamp, and some cables tomorrow. That should get me going in the right direction. 

[stevie]

It could be useful to consider what’s actually going on here and why the OP can’t hear his backline properly. It’s a common problem directly related to the dispersion of the speaker cabinet. It’s been covered here many times, but it’s worth repeating.

 

The speakers used in bass cabinets start to become directional at about 1kHz. This means that if you’re standing above or to the side of your cab, you won’t hear those frequencies very well. The higher you go, the worse it becomes as those mid/high frequencies start to form a very tight directional beam that goes right past your ears.

 

The frequency band between 1 and 4kHz is critical to audibility. It’s the area where consonants occur in speech. When you’re unable to hear them properly, you can’t understand what people are saying. It’s just as important for the bass, as that’s where you get your information on tonality, and more importantly, pitch. So if you can’t hear those frequencies, you’re going to struggle.

 

The usual solution is to point the cab at your ears, either by tilting it up or standing it on another cab. That works – until you move to the side of the cab.  Also, because of its directionality, the average  bass guitar cabinet is incapable of ‘throwing’ midrange/high frequencies very far. So the muffled sound that the player hears when standing off-axis is generally what the audience hears too.
 
This is why the ideal bass guitar cab needs to combine the characteristics of a PA with those of a stage monitor, with a coverage pattern capable of directing the full frequency range of the bass both to the player and to the audience.

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

That wouldn't be caused by the different driver sizes but by different phase responses. At frequencies where they differ at or close to 180 degrees apart they cancel. This scenario is one reason why well engineered systems never use different drivers in the same passband. Comb filtering is a related effect. It's when wave fronts from multiple sources meet at or near 180 degrees apart causing cancellation notches that alternately occur and disappear as one goes across the sound field. The primary cause is placing drivers side by side. The easiest cure is don't place drivers side by side. If you must do so the fix is to low pass one driver, or one side of a 4x,6x or 8x cab, so that they only work in tandem in the lows where comb filtering doesn't occur, and not in the mids and highs where it does. It's a simple inexpensive fix, known as an x.1 alignment, that's been used for at least fifty years by PA designers. AFAIK the only bass cabs that use it are Barefaced.

 

What happened there was you had a boundary reflection sourced low frequency cancellation zone on stage, where you were close to boundaries. Out in the audience away from those boundaries you don't have those cancellations, so the lows are louder there. If being where you were also put the cab on axis with your ears as it always should be the mids and highs would have been louder and more clear as well. The cure is to do your sound check listening out in the audience, adjusting both volume and EQ accordingly. Whatever that results in on stage you live with.

I think you missed that he was sitting down in front of the box, so more likely he got a full spectrum sound for a change instead of all woof. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I didn't miss it.

Quote

If being where you were also put the cab on axis with your ears as it always should be the mids and highs would have been louder and more clear as well.

 

[Phil Adams]

Thanks again folks. I will see how I get on with the monitors boosted with the DI box, if not then I will just have to keep trying different things.

the question of frequencies is interesting though, as I have been prescribed NHS hearing aids because I have trouble understanding people’s speech, though I don’t really find they help. 

[Huge Hands]

9 hours ago, Phil Adams said:

the question of frequencies is interesting though, as I have been prescribed NHS hearing aids because I have trouble understanding people’s speech, though I don’t really find they help. 

 

It might be worth checking with your specialist if you think they are not working for you, you may have the wrong ones, however, you may need to top up the NHS costs to get better ones. 

 

I'm sure there are others on here that know a lot more about this than me but recently I did the first step and tried the free Specsavers test as I struggle to focus on someone talking in loud environments, like a pub or restaurant.  They said their initial 5 min test showed a likely loss in the high frequencies (no s**t Sherlock!).

 

However, I was told that as I am under 55 I was too young to get free NHS hearing aids (unless I had a serious hearing problem diagnosed) so would likely have to self fund if I wanted them.

I was then shown a price list where - "these are the ones that you would get from the NHS, but as you go higher up the price range they are more suited to your type of hearing loss, the NHS ones probably wouldn't be that good for you".

 

I don't know if it was a dodgy salesman (I doubt it as he had "trainee" on his badge and came across as a nerdy teenager who had read all of the training guides back to front) or just the way it is.  At one point he did say "You might not even need them, it might just be because you're tired today" which made me laugh.  Suffice to say, I decided to leave it for now and struggle on as I am without.

 

Obviously my knowledge of hearing aids is all based on one 20 min appointment in an opticians with a spotty teenager in a shop designed to take your money.   I'm sure there is a lot better advice out there!

 

[basstone]

Does your amp have a DI output on XLR or even an line /preamp out TS socket? If so you could route these to your monitor(s) using standard balanced XLR mic cables. That way your tone should be more accurately heard from the monitors and you'd be less likely to introduce hum or noise as the DI out will be a balanced signal. If you don't need the backline speakers, for example at home or rehearsal,  just use the head as a preamp without the speakers? I am surprised that with a 1 x 15 and 2 x 10 cab (presumably 2 x 10 vertically stacked on top of the 1 x 15) that you can't hear it well enough without the  additional monitors.

[stevie]

I'd expect the 2x10 to be stacked horizontally - most people do it that way. But stacking it vertically will certainly help. Getting the hearing aid sorted would probably be the most useful course of action here.

[Phil Adams]

Regards my hearing, I don’t think it’s too bad. Clearly a lifetime of working with machinery, listening to music and riding motorbike has chipped away some of it. I just fing the hearing aids simply make everything a bit louder. Yes, you can adjust them on the app, but I’m simply not convinced that they will ever really benefit me, and the same applies to the thought of spending money on more exotic hearing aids, though it might be worth trying. Mrs Phil is Dutch, and speaks perfect English, but with an accent, and the aids haven’t helped me understand a flipping word she says, even when she shouts (often) 😂