Stage monitoring

[basstone]

11 minutes ago, Phil Adams said:

Regards my hearing, I don’t think it’s too bad. Clearly a lifetime of working with machinery, listening to music and riding motorbike has chipped away some of it. I just fing the hearing aids simply make everything a bit louder. Yes, you can adjust them on the app, but I’m simply not convinced that they will ever really benefit me, and the same applies to the thought of spending money on more exotic hearing aids, though it might be worth trying. Mrs Phil is Dutch, and speaks perfect English, but with an accent, and the aids haven’t helped me understand a flipping word she says, even when she shouts (often) 😂

So there is an upside then! lol.

[Huge Hands]

Funnily enough it was Mrs HH who persuaded me to have the test - she is sick of repeating herself when talking to me.

 

I think I do have hearing issues and I do struggle when I am not facing/on axis with her, but I also think blokey zoning out should be part of the diagnosis!  

[Phil Starr]

10 hours ago, Huge Hands said:

I think I do have hearing issues and I do struggle when I am not facing/on axis with her, but I also think blokey zoning out should be part of the diagnosis!  

 

OK that changes everything. I too have hearing loss and like you due to self abuse; too much loud music/machine tools and so on. The sound levels  of a band are enough to cause permanent damage (usually high frequency losses) in minutes and repeated exposure is cumulative, i.e. it just keeps getting worse. You need to move to in-ears as quickly as possible or it will get bad enough to stop you playing permanently. Well fitting in-ears will block out most of the noise at least as well as ear plugs but then allow you to hear clearer than ever before all the stuff you need to hear. Get it right and you have a volume control for the wildest drummer and the craziest guitarist. Honestly it's a game changer you can plug the lead to your monitor into a Behringer P2 instead and connect a set of KZ ZS10 pro in ears for well under £100 and hear like a kid again as well as stopping the inexorable destruction of your remaining hearing https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/389429-the-iem-in-ear-monitors-bible-thread/#comment-3944325

 

Losing some of your mids and high range makes it really hard to hear the details you need to make out what you are playing, being of axis to your monitors will mean you are having what you hear further reduced as off axis it is the mids and highs that are lost. You'll experience this as there being more and more venues where 'the acoustics are bad'.

 

As to hearing aids according to Which the NHS provide the best hearing aids which are now all digital and can be set up to mirror the frequency losses you have. There is no advantage to be gained by expensive commercial ones. I think the RNID have said something similar.

[Obrienp]

This is very topical for me as one of the bands I play in is going very low volume on stage and letting the PA do the work: the rhythm guitarist/vocalist has developed tinnitus. Fortunately we can do this because the drummer uses an electronic kit. We did a gig on Friday evening using this low volume approach but it was a very cramped stage. I was standing right against the BF One10 cab I was using and couldn’t get on axes for the nearest wedge monitor because of where the lead guitarist had to stand. I couldn’t hear myself (especially anything on the D and G strings), or the rhythm guitar all evening. Most of the gigs we play are equally cramped, so it is a problem we need to fix.

 

I’ve just ordered one of those Markbass Tilt System folding cabinet wedges, as a cheap alternative to buying a kickback cab/combo. I am hoping having the cabinet at an angle will help me hear myself, even when up close but I foresee issues with the amp head sliding off during the gig. I am sure Velcro or similar can sort that. However, all that  is probably tinkering at the margins and the best way to solve this is to go down the IEM route.

 

I posted about this in How Was Your Gig Last Night thread and was directed to the IEM topic linked by Phil Starr above. Agh! There is so much of it and there are so many conflicting opinions! A hard wired IEM system might work for the drummer but the rest of us have already got rid of guitar leads (partly to have fewer trip hazards on cramped stages). We are inclined towards a wireless system but there seem to be so many pitfalls and this gear isn’t cheap. It looks like it could be easy to make a very expensive mistake!

 

Sorry for the word vom but sorting this problem doesn’t seem easy!

[Jakester]

3 hours ago, Obrienp said:

I’ve just ordered one of those Markbass Tilt System folding cabinet wedges, as a cheap alternative to buying a kickback cab/combo. I am hoping having the cabinet at an angle will help me hear myself, even when up close but I foresee issues with the amp head sliding off during the gig. I am sure Velcro or similar can sort that. However, all that  is probably tinkering at the margins and the best way to solve this is to go down the IEM route.

The markbass thing only works with carpeted cabs, as it uses velcro to stick, so you'll need to attach velcro to the bottom of your BF cab (in case you didn't already know that).

[Phil Starr]

Sorry to cause you trouble , if I ever get time I'll start a new thread as someone who has gone this route, slowly and with trepidation. It's been a voyage of discovery

 

You have to see if it going to work for you and fortunately you don't have to take it on trust. You can use rehearsals to try it all out and you can do this without disturbing the rest of the band or spending a fortune. Go wired to start with, just to try it out, Any headphone amp will work for a trial even an old mixer is good but the behringer PM2 is good and cheap. You can use any headphones at rehearsal (not bluetooth though) and the best phones are ones that blot out a lot of the outside noise. Over ears are great but I've got away with some £25 sennheiser ear buds. You can take a feed from the mixing desk or even from wedges or the pa speakers if they have a line level XLR out. 

 

Honestly the moment you get a proper mix through the phones you'll glimpse nirvana. It's like playing in a studio, you can hear everything, it's like playing along to the record. Nothing else comes close. In the end you'll play better because you really hear the music and every undamped note and mistake. Once you have it all working at rehearsal even if it is with giant Cyberman 'phones you can make up your own mind what to buy. I go wireless on big stages but most pubs you can't move anyway. 

 

 

[Obrienp]

1 hour ago, Jakester said:

The markbass thing only works with carpeted cabs, as it uses velcro to stick, so you'll need to attach velcro to the bottom of your BF cab (in case you didn't already know that).

Thanks for the heads up: I don’t recall seeing that in the blurb about it. TBH I was after that AER tilt stand, which is much cheaper but I could only find it at Thomann with £10 shipping, so went for the Markbass version from Rich Tone Music. I am surprised there are not loads of cheap knockoffs available but not in the UK anyway. I read somewhere that the Markbass version has metal plates in it, so I could use it with my Two10 as well, without worrying about rigidity but it sound like I will need to stick Velcro all over the cabs. If it is anything like my experiences with pedal boards, it will peel off the first time I separate cab from stand ☹️. 
 

I will just have to hope I find a good IEM solution and won’t have to worry about hearing my cab.

[Jakester]

5 minutes ago, Obrienp said:

I read somewhere that the Markbass version has metal plates in it, so I could use it with my Two10 as well, without worrying about rigidity but it sound like I will need to stick Velcro all over the cabs. If it is anything like my experiences with pedal boards, it will peel off the first time I separate cab from stand ☹️. 
 

I will just have to hope I find a good IEM solution and won’t have to worry about hearing my cab.

 

Well, if it's this one it definitely uses velcro to stick to the carpet on the MB cabs:

 

https://www.markbass.it/product/mark-stand/

 

I find that mine sometimes tips the cab too far back too, so it can fall backwards - I often end up propping it up against something. I guess if you position the cab further back it might tip less, but without the velcro/carpet I'd assume it would slide all over the place. It is pretty rigid though. 

[Obrienp]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

Sorry to cause you trouble , if I ever get time I'll start a new thread as someone who has gone this route, slowly and with trepidation. It's been a voyage of discovery

 

You have to see if it going to work for you and fortunately you don't have to take it on trust. You can use rehearsals to try it all out and you can do this without disturbing the rest of the band or spending a fortune. Go wired to start with, just to try it out, Any headphone amp will work for a trial even an old mixer is good but the behringer PM2 is good and cheap. You can use any headphones at rehearsal (not bluetooth though) and the best phones are ones that blot out a lot of the outside noise. Over ears are great but I've got away with some £25 sennheiser ear buds. You can take a feed from the mixing desk or even from wedges or the pa speakers if they have a line level XLR out. 

 

Honestly the moment you get a proper mix through the phones you'll glimpse nirvana. It's like playing in a studio, you can hear everything, it's like playing along to the record. Nothing else comes close. In the end you'll play better because you really hear the music and every undamped note and mistake. Once you have it all working at rehearsal even if it is with giant Cyberman 'phones you can make up your own mind what to buy. I go wireless on big stages but most pubs you can't move anyway. 

 

 

Don’t apologise: it’s great you put the thread together and I guess it reflects your journey. I was hoping there was an easy solution; e.g. somebody would pop and say spend the £1200 on the Sennheiser system (plus £450 a pop for the extra 2 receivers) and you will be laughing but I suspect it is not that easy.
 

We never have the luxury of a big stage but I am not sure I could manage a trailing lead these days, so wireless is definitely favourite. I did buy a super cheap 3 receiver set from G4M last year, to try with my other band but the guitarist/vocalist prefers a wedge monitor (mine as it happens) and the other two refused to wear them after the first try out. At least it means we have something to try out with this band, without spending more cash but I am certain the G4M system is not good enough to be “the answer”.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

On 03/02/2023 at 06:17, Huge Hands said:

Funnily enough it was Mrs HH who persuaded me to have the test - she is sick of repeating herself when talking to me.

That, along with the rest, indicates you might have issues with midrange. In ear may not help unless you have EQ capability to boost the mids, for added intelligibility. As for the Missus,  IMO they shouldn't use female voices for GPS, as I'm genetically programmed to ignore them.

[Obrienp]

8 minutes ago, Jakester said:

 

Well, if it's this one it definitely uses velcro to stick to the carpet on the MB cabs:

 

https://www.markbass.it/product/mark-stand/

 

I find that mine sometimes tips the cab too far back too, so it can fall backwards - I often end up propping it up against something. I guess if you position the cab further back it might tip less, but without the velcro/carpet I'd assume it would slide all over the place. It is pretty rigid though. 

Doesn’t sound as though it is going to be very successful. Perhaps I should have hung onto the £35 and put it towards a kickback combo like the MB Marcus Miller 2 x 10 but whether it would operate well at such low volumes is anybody’s guess. I find BF cabs are sensitive enough to function OK even at those low volumes. I don’t know MB stuff well enough to know if it will do the same.

[Downunderwonder]

I folded a cardboard W with return wings at the tips and squashed it flat, then run a Stanley knife through it at an angle. That angle is less than the angle you want the cab to finish at....

 

Back out at uniform angles and you have a wedge. The back of the 210 cab sits on the floor and the W holds up the cab.

 

Use cardboard from a double skin box and cover it in 50p worth of duct tape.

 

It can't collapse by spreading to a wider W without getting taller and lifting the cab. The front would have to get closer to the back. Quid pro quo it's rock solid until overloaded and crushed. You're welcome.

[Downunderwonder]

[Mottlefeeder]

Coming in a little late, but I have hearing loss, use a 1 x 10 on the floor as my main rig (!), and have gone to IEMs. 

There are some small mixers out there that have a 3 band EQ. That gives you some scope for taking an ambient mic input and/or a feed from the pa, and a feed from your bass/bass amp, and putting the missing mids back in to be fed to your in-ears. Eg the  Alto ZMX862.

Some PC audio interfaces can also be used stand-alone and can EQ and limit 2 channels into headphones, eg the Steinberg UR22C MKII (There may still be one of these for sale here)

David 

[Obrienp]

1 hour ago, Downunderwonder said:

I folded a cardboard W with return wings at the tips and squashed it flat, then run a Stanley knife through it at an angle. That angle is less than the angle you want the cab to finish at....

 

Back out at uniform angles and you have a wedge. The back of the 210 cab sits on the floor and the W holds up the cab.

 

Use cardboard from a double skin box and cover it in 50p worth of duct tape.

 

It can't collapse by spreading to a wider W without getting taller and lifting the cab. The front would have to get closer to the back. Quid pro quo it's rock solid until overloaded and crushed. You're welcome.

Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll give that a go if the Markbass stand doesn’t do the job.

[Obrienp]

The Markbass Tilt Stand arrived today. A quick try with the BF One10 at low volume suggested it might just work. I am not sure it would with a heavier cabinet, at high volume, without the Velcro attaching to the cabinet but the One10 is so light that it doesn’t seem to want to slide 🤞. It rests on the back edge of the cabinet, so I will put the whole assembly on my Auralex isolation pad, to stop any rattles. There is no way the amp head will stay on top of the cabinet given the angle of tilt. Trouble is it looks very vulnerable on the floor, especially if we are playing in cramped conditions. Perhaps I will have to put the head on my peddle board (Warwick Gnome) and use a long speaker lead: does that cause drop off, or latency issues?

 

Next task is to sort IEMs 😳.

[Dan Dare]

On 07/02/2023 at 16:28, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

As for the Missus,  IMO they shouldn't use female voices for GPS, as I'm genetically programmed to ignore them.

 

It depends. I have my GPS set to the female voice with an Irish accent. My missus was Irish. When the GPS tells me what to do, I reply "Yes dear" 🙂. Can't help myself.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Oh, I always replied similarly when my wife said something. But I never actually heard what she said. It was just a defense mechanism against her repeating herself. 😉

Quote

The Markbass Tilt Stand arrived today. A quick try with the BF One10 at low volume suggested it might just work.

I didn't notice where you were ordering it, so this advice is late, but this or something similar would do much better:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AmpStd--on-stage-stands-rs7000-tiltback-amp-stand

[basstone]

36 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Oh, I always replied similarly when my wife said something. But I never actually heard what she said. It was just a defense mechanism against her repeating herself. 😉

I didn't notice where you were ordering it, so this advice is late, but this or something similar would do much better:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AmpStd--on-stage-stands-rs7000-tiltback-amp-stand

I use something similar to this with adjustable height and tilt for a GK 2x10 cab and mb500 head. It works well but have to watch for the head sliding off. I should really put some Velcro on there. I can hear much better with it competing with a 7 piece funk /soul band so stage volume is quite high with the horns and drums in particular.  The only downside apart from having another piece of gear to load in is that there is no convenient place to put my drink down!

[Obrienp]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Oh, I always replied similarly when my wife said something. But I never actually heard what she said. It was just a defense mechanism against her repeating herself. 😉

I didn't notice where you were ordering it, so this advice is late, but this or something similar would do much better:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AmpStd--on-stage-stands-rs7000-tiltback-amp-stand

Thanks for the suggestion. Similar stands are available in the UK. I went down the MB tilt stand route because it was half the price and folds flat but I may yet have to put out the extra cash on one like you suggest. 

[Obrienp]

48 minutes ago, basstone said:

I use something similar to this with adjustable height and tilt for a GK 2x10 cab and mb500 head. It works well but have to watch for the head sliding off. I should really put some Velcro on there. I can hear much better with it competing with a 7 piece funk /soul band so stage volume is quite high with the horns and drums in particular.  The only downside apart from having another piece of gear to load in is that there is no convenient place to put my drink down!

I’m using a Warwick Gnome with this set up, so even more danger of it sliding off. It’s going to have to go on the ground but in cramped playing conditions there is a real danger of it getting trampled on. I have visions of a jack plug breaking off in the socket (I have had that happen with a pedal before), or worse the speaker socket on the amp getting mangled. I even considered an Ashdown Ant for the pedal board but over £300, for an amp with the same capabilities as my Warwick that cost half the price, seems excessive.

 

WRT your drink: one of those drink holders that clips on a mic stand?

[Downunderwonder]

Sometimes you can hook the front amp feet on the front of the cab.

 

A length of black bungee cord from the hardware barn can do a lot of stabilizing. 

[Obrienp]

9 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Sometimes you can hook the front amp feet on the front of the cab.

 

A length of black bungee cord from the hardware barn can do a lot of stabilizing. 

Certainly worth a go. Thanks for the idea.

[PaulThePlug]

While on the subject of stage monitoring...

DI Pre-amps... Would you be expecting to find an XLR to go in to your box... or be presenting an XLR to go in to their mixer...

I.e. your lead of theirs, maybe your short-ish lead to go in to their snake box?..

[Downunderwonder]

9 hours ago, PaulThePlug said:

While on the subject of stage monitoring...

DI Pre-amps... Would you be expecting to find an XLR to go in to your box... or be presenting an XLR to go in to their mixer...

I.e. your lead of theirs, maybe your short-ish lead to go in to their snake box?..

Not that I have played a 100th of the PA supported gigs of some here, on every occasion the DI box has been right by the bass position.

 

Depending on the gig they may have it all set to go DI to desk and DI to amp and be expecting you to plug your instrument cable into the DI. Depending on the gig you might be stuck with that which is why I have gravitated to pedalboard output.

 

On the gigs where we the band or client is bringing in a sound crew for us the DI box is presented. It's on you to politely ask to unplug it and try the amp DI.

 

You never want to just yank their lead without asking. If you carry your own XLR to go to their DI from your DI you open more cans of worms with the level that hits their desk so you don't want to be doing that unannounced either.

 

Never had to scramble for an extra XLR cable so I don't carry one. It would probably end up with the soundcrew anyway.

 

Afaik it's industry standard that the bassist is responsible up to the end of the instrument cable.