8x10 Conundrum

[danbowskill]

21 hours ago, BassAdder60 said:

I gigged the Ampeg SVT610 HLF and SVT CL for some time and it’s a perfect match 

 

Great rig 

Me too (although the heads long gone), I much preferred the sound over the 8x10 plus was easier to get around

[BassAdder60]

1 hour ago, danbowskill said:

Me too (although the heads long gone), I much preferred the sound over the 8x10 plus was easier to get around

Yep definitely!!

 

Im now using the CTM100 and SVT212AV cab .. nice match 

[la bam]

I used an old svt 810 at a practice room with an old svt3 (not an all valve svt).

 

Sounded terrible. Like blown garbage speakers. Like something was broke. ......

 

Anywho, when we played through with the full band is was fantastic!! Fitted lovely. Sounded lovely. Clear and warm and full of character.

 

Loved it.

[walshy]

So I have a mix of Ampeg heads SVT and SVT2 Pro along with the beautiful Ampeg 8x10 and the Barefaced 6x10. My conclusions are -

 

SVT and Matching 8x10 - Absolute heaven

SVT and Barefaced 6x10 - Absolute heaven but much lighter

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by walshy

[fretmeister]

16 hours ago, walshy said:

So I have a mix of Ampeg heads SVT and SVT2 Pro along with the beautiful Ampeg 8x10 and the Barefaced 6x10. My conclusions are -

 

SVT and Matching 8x10 - Absolute heaven

SVT and Barefaced 6x10 - Absolute heaven but much lighter

 

 

 

I don't know if it's my age, but I'm increasingly moving towards a P bass with an Ampeg sort of approach to everything.

 

It's like my changing tastes are violating everything I hold dear!

[fretmeister]

On 06/02/2023 at 17:24, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Not necessarily. Boom occurs in the 80-120Hz range, an octave above pant flapping lows. Ported cabs can be boomy, if they use drivers that don't have specs that are tailored for ported and/or the cab is tuned too high and/or it's too small. If anything sealed are more likely to have a response bump in the 80-120Hz range, while dropping off like a cliff below 80Hz. If you're used to the thin lows of sealed and prefer it that's fine, but where economy of size is concerned a pair of ported 2x10 will equal the low end output of a sealed 8x10, while you can cut back the lowest octave with EQ if that's your preferred tone. What you can't do is to boost the low end of a sealed cab with EQ to get those trousers flapping, as the drivers will run out of excursion.

 

 

I was only half serious with the descriptions for sound but as I wrote it, it seemed to make some sense at some level.

Whether my gronky is the same as another player's gronky is a completely different kettle of grizzgrindywallop.

[SamPlaysBass]

16 hours ago, walshy said:

So I have a mix of Ampeg heads SVT and SVT2 Pro along with the beautiful Ampeg 8x10 and the Barefaced 6x10. My conclusions are -

 

SVT and Matching 8x10 - Absolute heaven

SVT and Barefaced 6x10 - Absolute heaven but much lighter

 

That’s a dream room right there, Walshy!

 

Down to brass tacks - what are the main differences between the pair of cabs with the SVT?

 

Main things I’d like to know are:

 

• Can you hear and feel the 6x10 as much as you can the 8x10? Is the height difference of the 8x10 noticeable? 

• Is there a difference in tone or are they near enough identical?

 

• Is the Barefaced a compromise over the Ampeg? i.e. ‘It’s very nearly as good as the SVT but sooo much lighter etc.’ but the SVT realistically has a bit more to it.

 

Cheers in advance mate! 

[SamPlaysBass]

11 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

 

I was only half serious with the descriptions for sound but as I wrote it, it seemed to make some sense at some level.

Whether my gronky is the same as another player's gronky is a completely different kettle of grizzgrindywallop.

 I know what you mean, I was being genuine in my reply haha. 
 

I always think of Ampeg 8x10s as pushing the air over me without a load of bottom or top end. Always nicely balanced, but mid focused to a certain extent. 

 

My current ported cabs tend to throw more low end frequencies out. Not bad, but different. I like the mid focused tone of a sealed cab but always wondered if a ported cab ever too much in an 8x10 configuration. 
 

Also, just to wade into the mix, we’ve got a band van and we’re pretty hands-on when it comes to load-ins. This cab will never be in a car or used down the Dog & Duck - I’ve got a TC RH750 and RS112 cabs for that. It’s a pure band acquisition that will be toured around the UK and Europe in a rock/soul band setting.

[knicknack]

If you do decide to go down the Fender 810 route Absolute Music in Bournemouth have an Ex-Demo one that could probably be negotiated on. I have one here too and would always be happy for you to try it if down my way. I promised myself I could have an 810 as long as I never need to ask for anybody's help with it, and i can easily handle it by myself. The Bassman head is probably more awkward!

[asingardenof]

1 hour ago, SamPlaysBass said:

• Is the Barefaced a compromise over the Ampeg? i.e. ‘It’s very nearly as good as the SVT but sooo much lighter etc.’ but the SVT realistically has a bit more to it.

Watching some of Alex's YouTube videos he mentioned the Ampeg 8x10 as the exemplar for bass cabs. I'd be interested to see the extent to which he's emulated it, whether consciously or not.

[mowf]

I've got an early '80s SVT head and 8 x 10 cab. It is, as Walshy says, absolute heaven (to listen to). I generally get the same feeling using it, that I get when I come inside after a walk in the cold, and can warm up by standing with my back to  a really nice fire. Toasty.

[walshy]

2 hours ago, fretmeister said:

 

 

I don't know if it's my age, but I'm increasingly moving towards a P bass with an Ampeg sort of approach to everything.

 

It's like my changing tastes are violating everything I hold dear!

Do it, it’s a way of life 😂

[walshy]

2 hours ago, SamPlaysBass said:

That’s a dream room right there, Walshy!

 

Down to brass tacks - what are the main differences between the pair of cabs with the SVT?

 

Main things I’d like to know are:

 

• Can you hear and feel the 6x10 as much as you can the 8x10? Is the height difference of the 8x10 noticeable? 

• Is there a difference in tone or are they near enough identical?

 

• Is the Barefaced a compromise over the Ampeg? i.e. ‘It’s very nearly as good as the SVT but sooo much lighter etc.’ but the SVT realistically has a bit more to it.

 

Cheers in advance mate! 

Yeah the 8x10 is magnificent but the Barefaced is like 95% there and 95% less weight so it’s a no brainer. It kinda allows you to stomache the heavy head when the cab is so light too.

 

So, if both rigs are set up on a stage/room I’d use the 8x10 Ampeg every time. If I was loading in myself the Barefaced would come every time.

[LewisK1975]

On 06/02/2023 at 10:15, SamPlaysBass said:

........However, I’ve always fancied an 8x10. I’ve played many over the years and I played through one on Saturday night.

 

 

And I hope you don't mind me saying Sam - Bloody good you were too, that Red Rick is super sexy.  First time I've seen Chris live also and I was blown away.  Great band you got there!

[BassmanPaul]

For me, I wouldn't play through an 8x10 if you gave it to me!

[Downunderwonder]

If it's 95% of the sound but only 27kg I know which one your bandmates want to help move off stage etc. They also get to hear it better without the beaming.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, BassmanPaul said:

For me, I wouldn't play through an 8x10 if you gave it to me!

I wouldn't, since my 112 goes as loud as a '69 SVT 810 would. 😉

It's a form factor that we really haven't needed for some thirty years now, thanks to both driver technology and PA. It remains the staple backline rental cab, since you won't find anyone who can rightly say that it's inadequate.

[fretmeister]

My Super Twin goes so damn loud I actually worry about the health and hearing of people who use one at full throttle instead of using the PA.

It has a silly amount of low end too.

 

In most venues I'm using the amp EQ to lower the bass rather than boost it. My Markbass AG1000 has the low control at 65hz and that's a good choice for removing some low end. Then I boost a bit at 100hz (with a jazz bass anyway) so there's still plenty of fullness happening but without any mud.

 

Every now and again I think about swapping the Super Twin for a a BF Two10. I don't really need anything bigger. The Six10 would probably be easier to live with because of the wheels but it's overkill, and the Four10 is too heavy for me without wheels, so that leaves the Two10.

 

I wish Alex would make a vertical Three10 with tiltback wheels. That would be perfect for me. Nice and slim for a small stage footprint, high enough to hear when standing close to it (could even tilt the top cone a bit in the baffle). I know getting 3 speakers to hit 4ohms could be an issue but Ashdown have managed it with their vertical 3x10. Presumably with adding a resistor or 3 rather than redesigning the speakers themselves to be 12ohms each. Anyone know?

 

I'd order that on the day it was announced. Even, and I say this with dread, if the wife said no!  

 

In fact, I'm going to buy a Euromillions ticket. And if I win I'll custom order one from @alexclaber. He might start by refusing, but if I've won that jackpot I'm pretty sure we'll come to an arrangement quite quickly!  

 

Introducing the fretmeister signature cab, the GronkygrizzgrindywallopThree10... *

 

* Optional extra for £100 is to remove the name of the cab... and the chromaflare neon paint job.

Edited February 9, 2023 by fretmeister

[Dan Dare]

56 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

I wish Alex would make a vertical Three10 with tiltback wheels. That would be perfect for me. Nice and slim for a small stage footprint, high enough to hear when standing close to it (could even tilt the top cone a bit in the baffle). I know getting 3 speakers to hit 4ohms could be an issue but Ashdown have managed it with their vertical 3x10. Presumably with adding a resistor or 3 rather than redesigning the speakers themselves to be 12ohms each. Anyone know?

 

Good shout. I had an Epifani 3x10 that I really liked. I moved it on because it was wide and quite deep - almost the same size as a 4x10 - and difficult to fit in the car or get up the narrow stairs to the flat I lived in. Couldn't argue with the performance, though. Many amps will work happily into 2.6 ohms these days, so three 8 ohm drivers would not present an issue to them.

[BigRedX]

@SamPlaysBass, I'm going to rain on your parade with a few practicalities.

 

I play in a couple of bands that do slightly smaller gigs than you appear to - mostly 100-500 capacity venues with the occasional 500+ venue. In the days when I still had a conventional bass rig I can honestly say that my choice of cab(s) made a absolutely no contribution to the bass guitar sound the audience heard. They also made very little contribution to what I heard on stage, as the moment I stepped away from being directly in front the cabs I could hear more bass guitar from the foldback than I could from my rig. Some gigs we played I was being asked to turn the rig down to such an extent so as to not affect the FoH sound, that could hardly hear anything from it even when I stood directly in front of it with the higher speakers right next to my ears!

 

The bass always goes through the PA and IIRC I've had my rig mic'd up on less than a handful of occasions, and since there was also I DI feed from the amp and the driver that was mic'd was chosen seemingly at random rather than spending the time listening to each in turn to decide which was the best sounding, I have no way of knowing exactly what contribution this mic was making to the FoH sound. That's before you deal with the fact that one driver close mic'd in a 6x10 or 8x10 cab does not sound the same as the whole cab from several feet away. 

 

Sure the conventional rig looked great and everyone in the bands pulls their weight when it comes to loading in and out, but I could no longer justify to myself taking up all that space in the van and on stage with equipment that made no contribution to what the audience heard and very little contribution to what myself and the rest of the band heard on stage. I'm lucky in that the genres of music I play these days having a conventional backline is not an absolute requirement from an image PoV. I also play a lot of gigs supporting fairly well-known bands from the 80s and 90s and there seems to be a fairly even split between those that still use the same conventional amps and cabs as they did "back in the day" and those that have ditched the backline entirely (occasionally the guitarist may be using some tiny valve combo). 

 

I certainly don't miss having to lug big heavy bass amps and cabs about. These days the heaviest items in the load are the drummer's hardware box for one band, and the synth player's over-engineered K&M keyboard stand in the other!

 

And even if I was still using a conventional rig, I certainly wouldn't want to be dealing with the hassle of carnets etc. for using it outside of the UK. I'd be looking at hiring something on the European mainland for that part of the tour.

 

So if it makes you happy, go ahead and agonise over which cab(s) to get, especially if the van space, stage space and the load in and out are no concern. But don't kid yourself that it is making any contribution to the bass guitar sound the audience hears at most of your gigs or even what the rest of your band can hear on stage.

 

Is it really worth the effort?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

2 hours ago, fretmeister said:

 adding a resistor or 3 rather than redesigning the speakers themselves to be 12ohms each. Anyone know?

Resistors won't work, they lose too much power and get too hot. 12 ohm voice coils aren't a problem for OEM, you just have to meet the minimum order requirement. With Eminence that's 50, although I can't see anyone order fewer than 100.

[fretmeister]

2 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Good shout. I had an Epifani 3x10 that I really liked. I moved it on because it was wide and quite deep - almost the same size as a 4x10 - and difficult to fit in the car or get up the narrow stairs to the flat I lived in. Couldn't argue with the performance, though. Many amps will work happily into 2.6 ohms these days, so three 8 ohm drivers would not present an issue to them.

Alas none of my heads run that low! 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Three 16 ohm drivers would give 5.3 ohms, which is as low as one really needs. That's no problem with OEM, but at retail there aren't many 16 ohm drivers to be found.

[asingardenof]

9 minutes ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Three 16 ohm drivers would give 5.3 ohms, which is as low as one really needs. That's no problem with OEM, but at retail there aren't many 16 ohm drivers to be found.

Markbass does a 3x10 cab that apparently runs at 6 ohms. Presumably they're just rounding up from 5.3? Or is an 18 ohm driver feasible?

[SamPlaysBass]

4 hours ago, BigRedX said:

But don't kid yourself that it is making any contribution to the bass guitar sound the audience hears at most of your gigs or even what the rest of your band can hear on stage.

This is what the rational side of my brain knows and yet I’ve bypassed sensibility in favour of playing what I see my heroes playing.

 

On a practical level, 100% agree with everything and realistically I could turn up with nothing more than a bass, tuner, a SansAmp and a couple of leads and play Wembley tomorrow. However, a £400 Sire will do nearly everything a Pre-CBS Fender does, but dare I say many people would choose the vintage option over the sensible if the position allowed for it? I would, because I feel I would enjoy the opportunity to use something that is regarded as special in a hobby/line of work. It’s more an emotive decision than an engineering solution. 

In the (hopefully distant) future, I’ll no doubt get to the point where I’ll need to go lightweight/ampless etc. and hopefully I’ll pass on my rig to another young SamPlaysBass in a few years time, most likely at huge financial loss to me. 
 

To shave the fat off my question, is a ported 8x10 with a tweeter vastly different in sound to a sealed Ampeg 8x10?