8x10 Conundrum

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

48 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

Markbass does a 3x10 cab that apparently runs at 6 ohms. Presumably they're just rounding up from 5.3? Or is an 18 ohm driver feasible?

Probably rounding it up. That's OK, because nominal driver impedance ratings are just that, nominal, not exact.

[warwickhunt]

I just bought a 2nd pair of TC 210 cabs (I only gig 2 of them), if I was very tall it'd make the ultimate 8x10. 

 

[fretmeister]

1 hour ago, SamPlaysBass said:

This is what the rational side of my brain knows and yet I’ve bypassed sensibility in favour of playing what I see my heroes playing.

 

On a practical level, 100% agree with everything and realistically I could turn up with nothing more than a bass, tuner, a SansAmp and a couple of leads and play Wembley tomorrow. However, a £400 Sire will do nearly everything a Pre-CBS Fender does, but dare I say many people would choose the vintage option over the sensible if the position allowed for it? I would, because I feel I would enjoy the opportunity to use something that is regarded as special in a hobby/line of work. It’s more an emotive decision than an engineering solution. 

In the (hopefully distant) future, I’ll no doubt get to the point where I’ll need to go lightweight/ampless etc. and hopefully I’ll pass on my rig to another young SamPlaysBass in a few years time, most likely at huge financial loss to me. 
 

To shave the fat off my question, is a ported 8x10 with a tweeter vastly different in sound to a sealed Ampeg 8x10? 

 

With a tweeter it probably goes up to 16Khz to 20Khz.

 

Without it probably tops out at about 5Khz. If you cannot defeat the tweeter that could be a clacky pile of derrière unless you want to be Marcus Miller. Or Fieldy. For some reason.

 

Every 8x10 sounds different even if they are all sealed. Make it ported and add a tweeter and it's even more different.

 

The beauty in the Ampeg is that by any objective standard it's an absolutely sh1te design with massive compromises. And that's what gives it its unique character. There's not a lot of bass, the mids are farty when driven by an SVT and there's not a lot of top end. Often sounds crap on its own... and then amazing when the rest of the band get rolling.

 

I get the feeling that if you buy anything else - even the Barefaced - you will still have that itch to scratch and you won't be happy until you have an Ampeg.

 

Set up an ebay notification for an Ampeg and put wanted adverts up on here and on thefretboard.co.uk and maybe even email your local rehearsal studios and equipment hire places.

 

Somebody will be looking to get rid of one before long. From a practicality POV they are as useless as guitar 4x12 cabs have become. They are selling for peanuts as well.

 

Get the Ampeg while you are still young enough to move it about!

 

 

[Phil Starr]

I think you just want the Ampeg and there is no shame in that. Just before Covid I went out and did what I often did when my wife was at her book group and saw as many cover bands as I could squeeze into one night. Two of them stood out for the glorious bass sound, different amps but both had Ampeg 4x10's. The Ampeg is a really unsophisticated cab packed with loads of really cheap speakers and has a really coloured sound. It's designed for sheer bass volume at a time when PA's weren't so great. Sometimes you just luck out, it works and it is probably the defining sound of rock music. You can probably get more or less the sound and loud enough for your monitoring from a good lightweight cab and an emulator but if you want to experience for a year or two then go for it.

 

Every 8x10 is going to sound different but there is a generic difference difference as well. Old people are generally less physically able than young people but for any two individuals that won't necessarily be true.

 

For any given cab adding a port is going to give you roughly an extra 3db in the lowest octave and lower the f3 roll off point so you'll get deeper bass as well. Port loading also reduces the excursion of the speaker so improves power handling at the lowest frequencies. You'll probably get more bass and deeper bass. 

 

The ampeg gets away with it because standing a cab on the floor reinforces the bass at the lowest frequencies. The floor reflections add to the bass coming from the speaker so the reflected bass fills in the missing bit. For a lot of ported cabs the response is flatter and so the floor reinforcement can be boomier if you don't roll off the bass. That's why so many modern speakers sound great at low volumes at home but are way too bass heavy at gigs. A few designers are starting to design a 'shelving' response at the bottom end.

 

Go on you get the Ampeg and I'll get the 3litre Cosworth

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

The ampeg gets away with it because standing a cab on the floor reinforces the bass at the lowest frequencies. The floor reflections add to the bass coming from the speaker so the reflected bass fills in the missing bit.

That's true of all speakers, and so long as they're less than 1/4 wavelength off the floor it still applies. I/4 wavelength is 86cm at 100Hz, 172cm at 50Hz. The same applies to the distance from the baffle to the wall behind the cab. This does bring up another point. If you have boom you can reduce it by lifting the cab high enough and/or pulling it away from the wall far enough. In effect you can utilize the cab height off the floor or distance to the rear wall as a notch filter. As to cabs being too bass heavy at gigs it's often for the same reason. You can have a combination of cab to ear to boundary distances that result in cancellations of the lows where you're standing. Move away and the distances are longer, cancellation frequencies shift downward to below the range of the bass, and magically it's louder and deeper ten meters away from the cab than it is at two meters. Just another tidbit that guitar players need not be concerned with, but bass players must. 

[Owen]

3 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

I just bought a 2nd pair of TC 210 cabs (I only gig 2 of them), if I was very tall it'd make the ultimate 8x10. 

 

One logo in the wrong place........unsettling.......

[PaulThePlug]

My teeth are itching!

[warwickhunt]

14 minutes ago, Owen said:

One logo in the wrong place........unsettling.......

 

A bit of an oddity that 1 cab.  It has a 'slightly' different input plate on the back which also happens to have 1/4" as well as Speak-on in/thru.  

 

However, maybe I should reposition the logo to save those on the spectrum!    

[Owen]

I lke things to be in their place.

 

To bring this back on topic I did a series of gigs where backline was provided.  The SVT experience was new to me and I cannot deny that I enjoyed it. But one venue had a knackered specimen which did not work. They wheeled out a Turbosound sidefill for me. The LF extension was addictive. I am convinced I was hearing an octave which was just not present from the SVT. A 5 string 40" scale NS EUB gets really solid on the B with the right cab behind it.

[warwickhunt]

4 minutes ago, Owen said:

I like things to be in their place.

 

To bring this back on topic...

 

To be fair I wanted to see how 3 of these would sound vertical (6x10 but 8 ft tall), so I took them to a rehearsal tonight where we are testing out PA/sounds for a new band... ye gods it was glorious!  
 

I genuinely didn't need PA support but turned right down to be realistic and even on tick over I could be heard everywhere on stage!  

[TheGreek]

I didn't read the whole thread - got to take the dog out - but there's an Ashdown 8x10 currently for sale on eBay which is literally (and I don't mean that in a teenager's way) just up the road from me - about a mile.

 

It was used at the monthly Rockden events at The Breaks Manor, Hatfield which is the venue we used for the Herts Bashes. 

 

I believe the seller is Dean Archer who is a contender for one of the nicest fellas on the planet.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/195583476012?mkevt=1&mkpid=0&emsid=e11051.m43.l1123&mkcid=26&ch=osgood&euid=7f9a7f726f0d4a33bc3023422ab30664&bu=43851974399&osub=-1~1&crd=20230209143730&segname=11051

[Downunderwonder]

2 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

A bit of an oddity that 1 cab.  It has a 'slightly' different input plate on the back which also happens to have 1/4" as well as Speak-on in/thru.  

 

However, maybe I should reposition the logo to save those on the spectrum!    

Easier to take the feet off and put them on the other end.

 

Edit: by rights the grill should come off and fit back on upside down?

Edited February 9, 2023 by Downunderwonder

[Downunderwonder]

6 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

if I was very tall it'd make the ultimate 8x10. 

You don't have to be so tall, just very strong so you can pick up the top two of six while someone slots in the 4th. I don't believe you are that silly though.

[NAS Bass]

The Bergantino NV610 has been mentioned already and I thoroughly agree. The NV series were absolutely banging cabs - 610, 215 and 412 equally and with their own flavours. I’ve used the NV215 for a long time, with lots of different heads (including a vintage SVT), and I don’t want to ever replace it. I’ve used the ABM610, which was pretty good but lacked the clarity of the Berg. Also, for many years I used an Ampeg 410HE, the sealed one like half an 810 and always with the tweeter off - a really good 8 ohm option, always sounded good, felt good and didn’t break a sweat no matter which head I used. As for big cabs taking up stage room, I’ve never understood that comment - most have the same footprint as a 210, unless you lay it on its side. 

[fretmeister]

3 hours ago, NAS Bass said:

The Bergantino NV610 has been mentioned already and I thoroughly agree. The NV series were absolutely banging cabs - 610, 215 and 412 equally and with their own flavours. I’ve used the NV215 for a long time, with lots of different heads (including a vintage SVT), and I don’t want to ever replace it. I’ve used the ABM610, which was pretty good but lacked the clarity of the Berg. Also, for many years I used an Ampeg 410HE, the sealed one like half an 810 and always with the tweeter off - a really good 8 ohm option, always sounded good, felt good and didn’t break a sweat no matter which head I used. As for big cabs taking up stage room, I’ve never understood that comment - most have the same footprint as a 210, unless you lay it on its side. 

A lot of new 210 are designed to be used vertically. It’s just a better orientation for horizontal sound spread.

[NAS Bass]

16 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

A lot of new 210 are designed to be used vertically. It’s just a better orientation for horizontal sound spread.

I can’t imagine gigging with a little 210 whichever way up it’s turned

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Horizontal 210s, or horizontal any ten or twelve configuration, were originally created because valve amps were wide. It's not like the audio community didn't know that vertical was better. St. Paul's Cathedral in London was equipped with vertical arrays in 1949.  They were only recently upgraded, with new vertical arrays. http://www.pamphonic.co.uk/029_wireless_world_1952_St_Pauls.PDF

 

Now that amps are much narrower speaker manufacturers are finally making available what they should have in the first place.

[fretmeister]

6 minutes ago, NAS Bass said:

I can’t imagine gigging with a little 210 whichever way up it’s turned

That’s only because you haven’t used up to date speaker tech. A modern 210 can be louder than an old tech 410.

 

And to be honest, if you need more then it’s far more efficient and effective to put it in the PA and make the on stage cab just a monitor.

[NAS Bass]

41 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

That’s only because you haven’t used up to date speaker tech. A modern 210 can be louder than an old tech 410.

 

And to be honest, if you need more then it’s far more efficient and effective to put it in the PA and make the on stage cab just a monitor.

Horses for courses I suppose. I have tried lots of modern ‘tech’ too. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by NAS Bass

[BassmanPaul]

Since I started stacking my Acme B2 2x10 vertically I wouldn't go back. 

[BassmanPaul]

On 09/02/2023 at 15:46, Owen said:

One logo in the wrong place........unsettling.......

Stack that one the other way up! QED.

[warwickhunt]

4 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

Stack that one the other way up! QED.

 

Tried it but the TC is right place but upside. 

[BassmanPaul]

Well you can't have everything!! LOL

[asingardenof]

On 12/02/2023 at 15:45, fretmeister said:

A lot of new 210 are designed to be used vertically. It’s just a better orientation for horizontal sound spread.

I tend to orientate my 2x10 depending on where I am in the room. If it's long and narrow and I'm set up at the narrow end I'll have the cab horizontal; if I'm on the long side then I'll use it vertically, even though the amp hangs off the sides a bit.

[Dood]

 

Here's my answer to the 8x10 / 6x10 conundrum. I like the modular approach depending on the gig size but in a more compact form factor. Nice chunky cabinets. These aren't Neo though.