Just a quick theory question

[Dudgeman]

Hi

 

Hopefully just a quick one... If a guitarist learns a song with their guitar detuned to E flat to match a record (in this case Get the funk out by Extreme) and then re tunes to standard 440 to play live, and plays exactly the same chord shapes, have thy effectively altered the key? 

 

Hopefully someone with more knowledge than me can put this to rest for me. Thanks

[fretmeister]

Yes.

 

If the tune was in E flat major, by tuning it up he'd be playing it in E major.

 

E flat major has 3 flats in the key signature. 

E major has 4 sharps.

Edited February 7, 2023 by fretmeister

[James Nada]

Yes, they've altered the key. It's a semitone higher in regular tuning 

[Dood]

The same goes for using a Capo and playing the same shapes in each new position its placed. 

[BassTractor]

I hate all these tunist comments, you bloody keyists!
No, the guitar player kept it in E all the time, but changed from the recording's Handel tuning (at roughly 415 Hz) to the band's modern tuning (440 Hz).

 😉 😃

 

[TheGreek]

I think you've all missed the point of this.

 

It isn't about the key, it's about the guitarist....

 

You should have known this

[paul_c2]

47 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

I hate all these tunist comments, you bloody keyists!
No, the guitar player kept it in E all the time, but changed from the recording's Handel tuning (at roughly 415 Hz) to the band's modern tuning (440 Hz).

 😉 😃

 

 

The guitarist hasn't changed the key of the guitar part; but the key in concert pitch is different, because a guitar which is detuned a semitone, transposes a different amount than a guitar which is regularly tuned.

 

Think of it like this: If a tenor sax player simply played something (with regular sax fingering) in (let's make it simple - the key of C) on their Bb instrument, it would be in (and sound in) Bb. But if they put down the tenor sax and picked up an Eb alto sax and played the same fingerings etc, it would then be in (and sound in) Eb. BUT if they were told, this music is in the concert pitch of C, they would use different fingerings on the Bb instrument so it sounded in C, and if they put down the tenor and picked up the alto, they would use different fingerings again to ensure it sounds in C.

 

And if a guitarist was asked to play an Ab chord, they could play an E shape bar chord with the bar at the 4th fret to sound Ab. Or they could pick up a detuned guitar and play an open chord (A shape) to sound Ab too.

 

Its blindingly obvious the answer to the original question is YES. If they think they haven't, then they are too stupid to play with other musicians in co-ordinated manner!!

[Nail Soup]

He has altered the key to E. 

And his approach makes perfect sense.

[Nail Soup]

For future ref, he could also have raised the recording to E using software like Audacity and learned it like that.

[paul_c2]

This is where having two guitars actually becomes useful (almost all other times, it is not). One is detuned, for that song. 

 

Top tip: don't muddle up which one is and isn't detuned.

[BassTractor]

40 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Its blindingly obvious the answer to the original question is YES. 

Of course it is, and I hope you understood the tune of my post, and the concept I jokingly introduced 😃  (but with a serious undertune: it's just how one decides to look at it; I've played baroque organs where the whole orchestra had to retune to the organ - a daunting task with some of the instruments).

[paul_c2]

Aaaaaah but was it A=432Hz?

[BassTractor]

9 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Aaaaaah but was it A=432Hz?

LOL. Let's not crawl down that particular can ... 😄

[Dudgeman]

Ladies and gents thanks for the answers and making me smile. My assumption, with my admittedly limited theory knowledge was , of course. I believe it would transpose from E flat major to E major in this case. .... His arguement was that as the fingering hadn't altered it was considered detuning rather than transposing... I love the old boy and he can now keep his theory and focus on his solo in GTFO. ..... Which he will absolutely nail because he is a hell of a guitarist.... Thanks all for the ridiculously smug smile on my face ...bass players rule

[Dood]

Had he have learned the song from notation such as the version in Guitar Pro, he will have seen it notated in the key of E Major (4 sharps) but the guitars are indeed 'detuned' down a semi-tone, so maybe that's where the confusion lies?

[Dudgeman]

2 hours ago, Dood said:

Had he have learned the song from notation such as the version in Guitar Pro, he will have seen it notated in the key of E Major (4 sharps) but the guitars are indeed 'detuned' down a semi-tone, so maybe that's where the confusion lies?

Nope...the confusion lies because he's old and senile and has too many strings on his guitar.... He deserves all the mocking I can throw at him as I have known him for years and he keeps suggesting songs to do in E flat and constantly forgets to tell me at practice that he is playing it in standard tuning....😂😂..... Git......

[TimR]

The song is in concert Eb. If there were piano or Brass parts, the pianist would have to be playing in Eb. Any Bb Brass would play in E. 

 

This is why a lot of motown is in the flat keys. It's easier for the Brass to play. 

[paul_c2]

F

[paul_c2]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

The song is in concert Eb. If there were piano or Brass parts, the pianist would have to be playing in Eb. Any Bb Brass would play in E. 

 

This is why a lot of motown is in the flat keys. It's easier for the Brass to play. 

The Bb brass would play in F to sound Eb

[Guest]

If you want some more terminology...

 

By detuning the guitarist turned his guitar into a transposing instrument.

 

A standard guitar is a Guitar in C. Detuned by a semitone it is a Guitar in B.

 

In Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante, essentially a concerto for violin and viola, the viola is uptuned a semitone, from CGDA to C#G#D#A#. The violin part and the all the parts for the orchestra's stringed instruments are written in Eb major, with the viola written in D major. Mozart himself was a viola player.

[fretmeister]

4 minutes ago, Ricky Rioli said:

If you want some more terminology...

 

By detuning the guitarist turned his guitar into a transposing instrument.

 

A standard guitar is a Guitar in C. Detuned by a semitone it is a Guitar in B.

 

In Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante, essentially a concerto for violin and viola, the viola is uptuned a semitone, from CGDA to C#G#D#A#. The violin part and the all the parts for the orchestra's stringed instruments are written in Eb major, with the viola written in D major. Mozart himself was a viola player.

 

There's a whole bunch of Bottesini double bass tunes where he's really messed about with the tuning.

I suspect he did it to enrage the other DB players of the time who were already having a hard time believing he could play that way.

[fretmeister]

13 hours ago, Nail Soup said:

He has altered the key to E. 

And his approach makes perfect sense.

 

If a rock band can all re-tune their instruments by the same amount then the approach is practical.

Happens a lot when a new singer has a lower register. Nice and easy to tune to D standard for everybody, but for ease of reference that D chord is still referred to as E so everybody knows what you are talking about.

 

But if you add any other instrument where that tuning choice is not possible then that approach just doesn't work because the player of that instrument needs to actually play differently. Piano / brass / reeds etc etc can't be detuned like a guitar can. The fact that many brass and reed instruments are transposing makes it even more of a pain.

 

I know some modern keyboards can have Middle C reset to a very wide range but every keys / piano player I've ever met would rather fosters on the power supply than take the cheating option.

 

So it can be very practical. Doesn't mean it's musically correct.

 

Sounds like the OP's mate would have a meltdown in a band full of transposing instruments.

I know I did the first time I joined a big band!

[Nail Soup]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

If a rock band can all re-tune their instruments by the same amount then the approach is practical.

The OPs guitarist didn’t retune his instrument when he was with the band. He just detuned at home while learning the tune. Then back to std at band rehearsal.

Thats how I read it anyway.

[mario_buoninfante]

16 hours ago, Dudgeman said:

and then re tunes to standard 440 to play live...

tuning the guitar in Eb doesn't mean they moved away from 440Hz.

 

 

16 hours ago, Dudgeman said:

have thy effectively altered the key? 

they transposed

[peteb]

13 hours ago, Dudgeman said:

Ladies and gents thanks for the answers and making me smile. My assumption, with my admittedly limited theory knowledge was , of course. I believe it would transpose from E flat major to E major in this case. .... His arguement was that as the fingering hadn't altered it was considered detuning rather than transposing... I love the old boy and he can now keep his theory and focus on his solo in GTFO. ..... Which he will absolutely nail because he is a hell of a guitarist.... Thanks all for the ridiculously smug smile on my face ...bass players rule

 

In practical terms, he is quite correct. All the bands I am in tune 'down one' i.e. we detune to half a step down, but we don't say that we are playing Whole Lotta Love in the key of Eb. 

 

However, technically that is exactly what we are doing!