Just a quick theory question

[TimR]

11 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

The Bb brass would play in F to sound Eb

 

Yes. It was 7am!

[TimR]

8 hours ago, Nail Soup said:

The OPs guitarist didn’t retune his instrument when he was with the band. He just detuned at home while learning the tune. Then back to std at band rehearsal.

Thats how I read it anyway.

 

Assuming the original is actually in Eb. Quite often songs were slowed down and sped up, sometimes the band tuned to whatever piano was in the studio (or not). 

 

 

[IamGroot]

I don't know about the guitarist, but the bassist would find a 5 string handy, so he could learn the song in closed position and just shift up or down as required.

 

In Texas, we have a lot of guitarists that play detuned to Eb ala Jimi Hendrix and SRV, especially for blues,  I usually keep a detuned bass for those fellows, but a 5 string works better for jam sessions.

[Ralf1e]

On 07/02/2023 at 20:04, paul_c2 said:

 

The guitarist hasn't changed the key of the guitar part; but the key in concert pitch is different, because a guitar which is detuned a semitone, transposes a different amount than a guitar which is regularly tuned.

 

Think of it like this: If a tenor sax player simply played something (with regular sax fingering) in (let's make it simple - the key of C) on their Bb instrument, it would be in (and sound in) Bb. But if they put down the tenor sax and picked up an Eb alto sax and played the same fingerings etc, it would then be in (and sound in) Eb. BUT if they were told, this music is in the concert pitch of C, they would use different fingerings on the Bb instrument so it sounded in C, and if they put down the tenor and picked up the alto, they would use different fingerings again to ensure it sounds in C.

 

And if a guitarist was asked to play an Ab chord, they could play an E shape bar chord with the bar at the 4th fret to sound Ab. Or they could pick up a detuned guitar and play an open chord (A shape) to sound Ab too.

 

Its blindingly obvious the answer to the original question is YES. If they think they haven't, then they are too stupid to play with other musicians in co-ordinated manner!!

And if a guitarist was asked to play an Ab chord, they could play an E shape bar chord with the bar at the 4th fret to sound Ab

Yes and this is why capos should be banned.

Bar chords rule. Here is the proof 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Ralf1e

[Nail Soup]

1 hour ago, Ralf1e said:

And if a guitarist was asked to play an Ab chord, they could play an E shape bar chord with the bar at the 4th fret to sound Ab

Yes and this is why capos should be banned.

Bar chords rule. Here is the proof 

Not sure if you were just joking, but the main reason people use capo/retune is to retain the possibilities offered by the specific chord shapes etc.

[paul_c2]

Capo should reduce the pressure on the fingers because instead of holding 6 strings down (with a bar chord) you’re holding 2 or 3 or maybe 4. Also you have the benefit of “open” capo’d strings ringing out a bit more. That’s why acoustic guitarists use them.

 

Your fingers just look like you don’t practise that much?

[Ralf1e]

1 hour ago, Nail Soup said:

Not sure if you were just joking, but the main reason people use capo/retune is to retain the possibilities offered by the specific chord shapes etc.

I appreciate your view and you are probably right but most of the people I have known who use a capo do it because they are too lazy to learn to use bar chords or other shapes further up the neck.

My choices are restricted as I can't hold a typical chord shape with a cut off finger that has a nail for a finger tip. (it just slides off) I can play single notes and use it for bars though using the flat face of the finger.

I was joking but my 🤣 vanished when I added my photo somehow.

[Ralf1e]

6 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Capo should reduce the pressure on the fingers because instead of holding 6 strings down (with a bar chord) you’re holding 2 or 3 or maybe 4. Also you have the benefit of “open” capo’d strings ringing out a bit more. That’s why acoustic guitarists use them.

 

Your fingers just look like you don’t practice that much?

Fixed

So you didn't notice the half inch missing off the top of the forefinger then. Open chords are a non starter with a nail for a fingertip unless you can play them with the other 3 fingers 🤣

[paul_c2]

Apologies, I couldn’t see the picture properly in a small phone screen.

[Nail Soup]

2 hours ago, Ralf1e said:

I appreciate your view and you are probably right but most of the people I have known who use a capo do it because they are too lazy to learn to use bar chords or other shapes further up the neck.

My choices are restricted as I can't hold a typical chord shape with a cut off finger that has a nail for a finger tip. (it just slides off) I can play single notes and use it for bars though using the flat face of the finger.

I was joking but my 🤣 vanished when I added my photo somehow.

Thanks, and yes I did miss the finger thing!

[Dudgeman]

On 08/02/2023 at 11:05, Nail Soup said:

The OPs guitarist didn’t retune his instrument when he was with the band. He just detuned at home while learning the tune. Then back to std at band rehearsal.

Thats how I read it anyway.

Yes that's exactly it ... Which is a pain for me as learnt it as per record so my fingering is now going to be flat or more likely I will have to take another bass tuned up a half step.... And it with this bass that I will belt him over the head repeatedly until I feel justice is done. 😂😂

[fretmeister]

24 minutes ago, Dudgeman said:

Yes that's exactly it ... Which is a pain for me as learnt it as per record so my fingering is now going to be flat or more likely I will have to take another bass tuned up a half step.... And it with this bass that I will belt him over the head repeatedly until I feel justice is done. 😂😂

 

Just play it in the different position!

 

It will only take a few runs to get it right. This is how people change keys for every other instrument!

[Nail Soup]

29 minutes ago, Dudgeman said:

Yes that's exactly it ... Which is a pain for me as learnt it as per record so my fingering is now going to be flat or more likely I will have to take another bass tuned up a half step.... And it with this bass that I will belt him over the head repeatedly until I feel justice is done. 😂😂

Got your point.

I think in a lot of cover bands they play the song in the original 'fingering' rather than the actual key in the record, so if the band play it in E and the producer slows it to Eb then the covers band will play it in E fingering (and hence E key) if it has benefits. Perhaps the slowed down tempo to keep the feel.

It's just about communication - the guitarist should have given a shout out nice and early  along the lines "I think they played this in E even though it sounds as Eb...can we do it in E?"

[Dan Dare]

5 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Just play it in the different position!

 

Exactly. I'm a bit mystified by this. Unless I'm reading it wrongly, the piece is going to be played in E. Most things are easier to play in E rather than Eb. The root becomes available in E. It would be far more challenging to learn something in E and then be required to transpose down a semitone to Eb.

[Downunderwonder]

On 08/02/2023 at 13:54, Dudgeman said:

Nope...the confusion lies because he's old and senile and has too many strings on his guitar.... He deserves all the mocking I can throw at him as I have known him for years and he keeps suggesting songs to do in E flat and constantly forgets to tell me at practice that he is playing it in standard tuning....😂😂..... Git......

Two ways around that provided you are onto him from the start.

 

There is tech that can detune the recording so you can learn it on your regular bass at the 1/2 step up from recording key.

 

Or you can get another bass for learning on then play it with the band on your regular bass. Some sensitive ear types might struggle with it sounding weird.

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Exactly. I'm a bit mystified by this. Unless I'm reading it wrongly, the piece is going to be played in E. Most things are easier to play in E rather than Eb. The root becomes available in E. It would be far more challenging to learn something in E and then be required to transpose down a semitone to Eb.

I think you must be reading it wrong. A lot of the stuff my cover band of old did was detuned bass along with detuned guitar so it was a no brainer to detune my bass. If a tune wasn't half a step detuned we retuned standard to learn it and played it half step down at gigs. Nobody had the spare cash for two instruments!

 

OP is playing half a step UP from recordings. My guess is OP's guitar hero learns it from chord charts on his standard guitar. So he swears up.and down he's playing in the original key.

[Downunderwonder]

15 hours ago, Dudgeman said:

Yes that's exactly it ... Which is a pain for me as learnt it as per record so my fingering is now going to be flat or more likely I will have to take another bass tuned up a half step.... And it with this bass that I will belt him over the head repeatedly until I feel justice is done. 😂😂

You're listening for the power chords on the guitar that use open strings. Been awhile so only D and A come to mind. If they are coming over as Db and Ab it's detuned. The obvious gimme is a low Eb on the bass. Or just set Auntie Google on every new tune. It really needn't be any drama.

[paul_c2]

If you're going to learn tunes by ear off of a record...........make sure its the SAME record!

 

And if there's any changes in key, make sure everyone in the band knows this.

 

Or..........why limit your band to playing in 2 different keys, why not 4?

 

 

[Dudgeman]

On 10/02/2023 at 22:15, Dan Dare said:

 

Exactly. I'm a bit mystified by this. Unless I'm reading it wrongly, the piece is going to be played in E. Most things are easier to play in E rather than Eb. The root becomes available in E. It would be far more challenging to learn something in E and then be required to transpose down a semitone to Eb.

I've learnt the tune in Eb using standard tuning with drop D. I could shift everything up a semi tone but in my considerable experience I know that, having run through the track over 20/30 times, I will make mistakes live.... I have been down this road before. We play taking Dawn's version of The Chain.... I have played the chain so many times over the last 20 years that the muscle memory is so ingrained I really struggle to change finger positions so I have a bass tuned to G just for that track. Also I have about 15 songs to learn for our next gig and don't really have the time to re learn GTFO a fret higher.....if it was a simple AC/DC song it would be different but there are numerous parts to this bass line for me to mess up. 😁

[paul_c2]

I think I'd get confused with too many different instruments in different tunings. I keep it simple for gigs - either normal tuning, or drop D. And if the tune uses drop D (it was always reading sheet music) I'd write clearly on it to tune to D. Then on the NEXT tune, write a note to retune!

[fleabag]

I never got past the word ' hopefully ' in the first post

 

Carry on

[Dudgeman]

35 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

I think I'd get confused with too many different instruments in different tunings. I keep it simple for gigs - either normal tuning, or drop D. And if the tune uses drop D (it was always reading sheet music) I'd write clearly on it to tune to D. Then on the NEXT tune, write a note to retune!

Make no mistake it is an utter pain.. I generally just use my jazz with hipshot xtender ...it gets me through most stuff... I have a back up bass and an explorer purely for the Taking Dawn cover. If I'd known the guitarist was going to transpose GTFO I would have done the same thing...detuned...learnt it and then returned to standard with the band. It's what I did with the DC, Lizzy and Queen stuff they play that is either slowed down on the record or played in Eb. Never mind.... 

 

[Munurmunuh]

Wondering how the OP's singer felt about the guitarist deciding to transpose a song up a semitone

[TimR]

2 hours ago, Ricky Rioli said:

Wondering how the OP's singer felt about the guitarist deciding to transpose a song up a semitone

 

That's usually why we transpose.

 

Did have a car crash at one gig in a band I was in. At the practice before the gig the singer asked if we could try the song in another key. We tried it but weren't sure it was any better. 

 

The drummer provided the setlists with keys and intro musician written next to the song, so we had an instant view of how the song started.

 

So I kicked off with the iconic bass intro in the key on the list which was the key we always played in... and then the rest of the band came in... unfortunately  some of them had made note of the proposed key change on their music during the practice...

[Dudgeman]

On 13/02/2023 at 07:51, Ricky Rioli said:

Wondering how the OP's singer felt about the guitarist deciding to transpose a song up a semitone

He's a talented lad... But not sure he has realised......he used to front our Muse tribute so he can hit some pretty high notes... .. he breezes the Maiden/acdc stuff we do in this new band