Pa set up for new band

[Waddycall]

I’m in a newly formed band that seems to have a fair bit of potential. We can’t find a drummer at the moment. There don’t seem to be many down here in Cornwall. We don’t want this to hold us back.

The guitar player is excellent using DAW and really enjoys it so he has created backing tracks for the drums. He has also created other parts such as synth, percussion etc where appropriate. 

If we can get it to work it’s going to sound great.

The rehearsal space has a Yamaha Stagepas 400 PA. For now we’re going to use my zoom R24 to play back and split the backing tracks between my bass amp and an old 200w guitar combo the guitarist has. I’m not sure this is a good idea unless we keep the volume right down but it will keep the small PA for vocals and acoustic guitar.

im now pondering how we might be able to set ourselves up for pub gigs using as much of the gear we already have as possible.

The singer has his own Stagepas 400 PA rated at 200w x 2.

I have a QSCRMX850a power amp which powers my bass rig (Vanderkley 210).

Were thinking of using in-ears to make sure we keep time with the backing tracks.

im thinking that we could get a small mixer and run everything through that and into a crossover with the lows going to the QSC power amp and into my bass cab and send the rest into the Yamaha Stagepas. If we get a mixer with enough aux sends we could then have monitor mixes how we like.

does this make sense or is it fundamentally flawed???

is the Stagepas likely to be able to handle everything in the average pub gig???

if it works out we could invest in some more gear but I’d rather make use of what we’ve got for now with the addition of a good mixer and a rackmount crossover if needed.

 

[Phil Starr]

Getting a drummer is problematic for your PA unless they use eDrums. At that point everything gets so loud on stage that three things become issues; monitoring, picking up unwanted sounds in the vocal mics and potentially acoustic feedback. Even that leaves out the big one, your hearing becomes threatened by the sound levels on stage. I'd strongly suggest you plan for this from the outset and you say:

1 hour ago, Waddycall said:

Were thinking of using in-ears to make sure we keep time with the backing tracks.

im thinking that we could get a small mixer and run everything through that and into a crossover with the lows going to the QSC power amp and into my bass cab and send the rest into the Yamaha Stagepas. If we get a mixer with enough aux sends we could then have monitor mixes how we like.

does this make sense or is it fundamentally flawed???

Hold on to that thought and plan this from the start and let it guide your purchases. I use an RCF M18 but Behringer, Soundcraft and Zoom all make great digital mixers with plenty of aux feeds. The Behringer mixers and some of the others offer multitrack recording also so you could trade in your R24 to part fund a good mixer. We run rehearsals with all in-ears, no PA or floor monitors needed. for gigs everything just goes via the PA. our guitarist still uses his guitar amp but turned down and miked up. I'm hoping to get him to go through a modeller and lose that too.

 

 

Buying a digital mixer is key to everything. Your sound will be in-ears and you'll need to organise that. You can each adjust your own monitor mixes right from day one and that will remain your personal sound whether you are on stage or in the shed. You can keep your programmed sounds and a click track or lose them at will when you add a drummer and send a balanced mix to the PA which means you have complete control of your band sound. The PA then just functions to make everything loud enough for the audience. 

 

I think your Yamaha 400 should be good enough at least for a while. Yamaha claim 129db and whilst I think that must be peak level that will make a lot of noise. The 400/600 series are much more competent than the 300/500 series that were it's predecessors. Ultimately I'd probably replace it with some more capable active speakers but I doubt you'd need to do that quickly. With no backline amps and currently no drums to drown out  you can just turn it up to the volume you are happy with. There aren't many pubs down in Cornwall or the rest of the West Country you won't be able to fill with sound.

 

Concentrate on finding the right mixer and all the in-ears and headphone amps first of all and get that bit right.

[DTB]

@Phil Starrhas just about nailed this subject. The stand out point for me is what he says about the sound level adding acoustic drums. My ears permanently ring due to sound levels playing with acoustic drums and standing near the cymbals.

 

[Waddycall]

28 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Getting a drummer is problematic for your PA unless they use eDrums. At that point everything gets so loud on stage that three things become issues; monitoring, picking up unwanted sounds in the vocal mics and potentially acoustic feedback. Even that leaves out the big one, your hearing becomes threatened by the sound levels on stage. I'd strongly suggest you plan for this from the outset and you say:

Hold on to that thought and plan this from the start and let it guide your purchases. I use an RCF M18 but Behringer, Soundcraft and Zoom all make great digital mixers with plenty of aux feeds. The Behringer mixers and some of the others offer multitrack recording also so you could trade in your R24 to part fund a good mixer. We run rehearsals with all in-ears, no PA or floor monitors needed. for gigs everything just goes via the PA. our guitarist still uses his guitar amp but turned down and miked up. I'm hoping to get him to go through a modeller and lose that too.

 

 

Buying a digital mixer is key to everything. Your sound will be in-ears and you'll need to organise that. You can each adjust your own monitor mixes right from day one and that will remain your personal sound whether you are on stage or in the shed. You can keep your programmed sounds and a click track or lose them at will when you add a drummer and send a balanced mix to the PA which means you have complete control of your band sound. The PA then just functions to make everything loud enough for the audience. 

 

I think your Yamaha 400 should be good enough at least for a while. Yamaha claim 129db and whilst I think that must be peak level that will make a lot of noise. The 400/600 series are much more competent than the 300/500 series that were it's predecessors. Ultimately I'd probably replace it with some more capable active speakers but I doubt you'd need to do that quickly. With no backline amps and currently no drums to drown out  you can just turn it up to the volume you are happy with. There aren't many pubs down in Cornwall or the rest of the West Country you won't be able to fill with sound.

 

Concentrate on finding the right mixer and all the in-ears and headphone amps first of all and get that bit right.

Ace - thanks Phil. It’s years since I’ve gigged and those little speakers on the Stagepas just don’t look up to it to me but if they can handle it that’s makes it a whole lot easier! Quite happy to buy a digital mixer ias the hub of a growing system. We have a rehearsal on Friday so we’ll see how we get on with our current gear and go from there. 

Id heard previously about IEMs s being good for keeping levels down last rehearsal I couldn’t hear myself and despite knowing better couldn’t resist the temptation to crank my amp up until it was silly. I’m beginning to think that losing my bass cab could be a blessing. I expect selling that would fund a couple of passive speakers if we’d wanted to go that way. 

[SubsonicSimpleton]

Just in case you are unaware, the Zoom R8 lets you send audio only out of the main outputs, and audio+R8 internal metronome click to the headphone out, you should be able to do this on the R24 as well.

 

I bought my R8 from a band that had been using it for backing tracks, and the unit allows you to set a playlist for all the backings tracks(which are stored as individual projects), so their drummer would take the headphone output with backing+click to his IEMs and they would feed the main outs to FOH + rest of the band IEMs.

[Phil Starr]

You will probably need to get some kit to do in ears, it needn't be expensive. The standard set up at the moment is a pair of KZ ZS10 Pro headphones and a Behringer P2 beltpack headphone amp. There's all the details and more in this thread https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/389429-the-iem-in-ear-monitors-bible-thread/

 

For discussion on mixing desks https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/468782-compact-mixing-desks-what-are-you-using/ might be useful

[Waddycall]

Thanks chaps, lots of bedtime reading 👍

[bassbiscuits]

Using a Behringer P2 and a pair of KZ ZS10 pros at the moment and they are great. 

[asingardenof]

On 19/02/2023 at 07:20, Waddycall said:

I’m in a newly formed band that seems to have a fair bit of potential. We can’t find a drummer at the moment. There don’t seem to be many down here in Cornwall. We don’t want this to hold us back.

Whereabouts in Cornwall are you? 

[Waddycall]

6 hours ago, asingardenof said:

Whereabouts in Cornwall are you? 

Slap bang in the middle nr St Austell but the other two members are from Redruth so we practice down there.

[asingardenof]

16 hours ago, Waddycall said:

Slap bang in the middle nr St Austell but the other two members are from Redruth so we practice down there.

Oh nice. I used to live in Redruth but never managed to find a band down that way unfortunately. I did find two excellent repairers down there that I miss having available though - Tube N' Truss in St Dennis is where I used to take my vintage Marshall valve amp for servicing and repairs (I miss that thing) and I used to go to Julyan Wallis (him off of BBC's The Repair Shop) near Penzance for instrument setups, etc.

 

I used to work with a drummer in Truro, and while he might not be looking for another band he might know of others who are. I'll see if I can get in touch with him.

[Waddycall]

7 hours ago, asingardenof said:

Oh nice. I used to live in Redruth but never managed to find a band down that way unfortunately. I did find two excellent repairers down there that I miss having available though - Tube N' Truss in St Dennis is where I used to take my vintage Marshall valve amp for servicing and repairs (I miss that thing) and I used to go to Julyan Wallis (him off of BBC's The Repair Shop) near Penzance for instrument setups, etc.

 

I used to work with a drummer in Truro, and while he might not be looking for another band he might know of others who are. I'll see if I can get in touch with him.

That’s great - thanks a lot 👍