Should I be worried about the neck with new strings on cheap bass?

[rwillett]

Hi,

 

First time post and pretty much a comple bass idiot, so please be gentle

 

I was given a cheap Westfield bass guitar my FIL found in the loft at Xmas, its basically an el cheapo Fender Precision copy and belonged to another relative who went to live in New Zealand. Its probably 10-15 years old, in good nick though apart from the strings. I have played guitar before but never bass and as a six string guitarist would put myself in the ambitious, but ultimately talentless, category. I had no aspirations to be a guitar hero as I knew my limitations and they were numerous

 

However after playing this cheap bass, it suddenly felt good and I've been practising every day, sometimes for an hour or more if work allows me. I am now slightly less talentless than before, but still have no dreams about being a new John Paul Jones,  John Entwistle or Phil Lynott.

 

As I said before, the bass is in decent nick, but the strings were trashed. So over the weekend I replaced them with a set of "Rotosound Standard Gauge Flatwound Bass Strings (45 65 85 105), RS77LD" according to the packaging. The shop said they were good enough for Phil Lynott, so who am I to argue?

 

I have now seen that the action around the 12 fret is quite a bit higher than before, so I am assuming that the new strings have pulled the neck up and raised the action. I'm 99% certain that the neck was lower before and it was easier to play around the 12th fret. I also noted that when I opened the new strings, I thought they were thicker than before. I changed the strings one at a time and used a tuner to get them set right.

 

I'm now worried that I've damaged the neck and not sure what do now. I live in North Yorkshire a long way from anywhere so don't have the luxury of popping into a local guitar shop and checking things out. I've released the tension on the strings but unclear what my next stapes are.

 

Any and all advice welcomed please.

 

Thanks

Rob

Edited February 20, 2023 by rwillett

[jd56hawk]

Aren't they high tension flatwounds with a very stiff feel?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paolo85]

Welcome!

Do not worry at all about the neck. Clearly you got higher eension strings so the neck is bent. There is an adjustable metal bar inside called truss rod which can straighten it out. Setup is very important so 40 pounds or so spent at a good tech (a recommended one, I was quite unhappy with a tech in a shop so they are not all the same) are totally worth it. You want your bass to have a nice comfortable action. Longer term, it is even more worth it to buy the tools and learn how to do a setup, which also applies to guitar.

Before doing that though, have a think if you like the feel of the strings.

I never tried them but I think rotosound flats are notoriously high tension. Also, I am a big fan of flatwounds but I think they would have not be my choice for somebody starting out on bass given that 90% of bass players use roundwounds which tend to be less stiff, come out more easily in the mix, and be less sticky.

I say that because strings are extremely important in terms of enjoyment of the instrument. Maybe you would like to try again and buy something more "neutral" (say some D'Addario roundwounds, they are not too expensive). Or if you want flats, there are other options with lower tension

[fretmeister]

Those Rotos are really heavy compared to other strings, even other flats.

 

If you normally like 45-105 for everyone else, then the Roto 40-100 will be just right.

But even then the tension is high and you'll need to do a set up again.

[rwillett]

13 minutes ago, jd56hawk said:

Aren't they high tension flatwounds with a very stiff feel?

 

Thanks for the reply, I wouldn't know. They feel a lot smooth than the old ones, but my knowledge of bass strings is limited to eight of them, the old ones and the new ones and the old ones are in the bin now.

 

Sorry to be vague, I am learning fast.

 

Rob

[rwillett]

37 minutes ago, Paolo85 said:

Welcome!

Do not worry at all about the neck. Clearly you got higher eension strings so the neck is bent. There is an adjustable metal bar inside called truss rod which can straighten it out. Setup is very important so 40 pounds or so spent at a good tech (a recommended one, I was quite unhappy with a tech in a shop so they are not all the same) are totally worth it. You want your bass to have a nice comfortable action. Longer term, it is even more worth it to buy the tools and learn how to do a setup, which also applies to guitar.

Before doing that though, have a think if you like the feel of the strings.

I never tried them but I think rotosound flats are notoriously high tension. Also, I am a big fan of flatwounds but I think they would have not be my choice for somebody starting out on bass given that 90% of bass players use roundwounds which tend to be less stiff, come out more easily in the mix, and be less sticky.

I say that because strings are extremely important in terms of enjoyment of the instrument. Maybe you would like to try again and buy something more "neutral" (say some D'Addario roundwounds, they are not too expensive). Or if you want flats, there are other options with lower tension

Paolo85,

 

Thanks for the reply. I am aware of the truss rod as I also have an old Westone 1A guitar, however I have never adjusted one and am wary of touching things like that. I have no issues with paying someone to sort this out for me, I do happen to be in Leeds on Weds so will see if I can make an appointment for a 'tune' there. Leeds is still 90 mins away and Morecombe (Promenade Music) is about an hour away.

 

I'll have a look at the end of the truss rod and see what it looks like. If it's an allen key or nut, I'll have the right tool and will see if this is something I could learn to do.

 

From a playing point of view, the flatwounds feel great, however this is based on a sample set of two sets of strings, so is not statistically significant.

 

I'm learning fast, so appreciate the help,

 

Rob

[rwillett]

25 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

Those Rotos are really heavy compared to other strings, even other flats.

 

If you normally like 45-105 for everyone else, then the Roto 40-100 will be just right.

But even then the tension is high and you'll need to do a set up again.

Thanks for the information. My sample set is two sets of bass strings and one of those was trashed. Playing the new strings feels great, but I have no experience to base this on anything else.

 

I am unclear what Roto 40-100 means, but I suspect this is the thickness of the strings? if I replaced the current (and new ones) with thinner and less high tension ones, I think I would still need the truss rod sorted out? is that correct?

 

Thanks

Rob

[Crusoe]

6 minutes ago, rwillett said:

Thanks for the information. My sample set is two sets of bass strings and one of those was trashed. Playing the new strings feels great, but I have no experience to base this on anything else.

 

I am unclear what Roto 40-100 means, but I suspect this is the thickness of the strings? if I replaced the current (and new ones) with thinner and less high tension ones, I think I would still need the truss rod sorted out? is that correct?

 

Thanks

Rob

That's just the bass version of guitar strings eg on a six stringer you might user Ernie Ball Super Slinky 9-46

[KingBollock]

You could try detuning the bass to something like D standard (D C G F instead of E A D G). This would loosen the tension from the neck but still be playable while you do some research to decide if you’d be confident enough to have a crack at setting the neck relief yourself (often, confidence is key).

 

I find this site useful:

https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-setup/adjusting-neck-relief/

[Paolo85]

So your previous strings were also flats? They weren't more rugged?

A lot of people are happy with the Rotos, so if they work for you that's great. If at some point they start feeling like hard work (eg your hands get tired easily) or you try a different bass somewhere else and like the feeling of other strings then you can look for more info.

Yes Roto 40-100 refers to the gauge of the rotosound. Still, you have no guarantee that the truss rod would not need adjustment with thinner strings. The old bass may have had strings with completely different tension regardless of the gauge. All strings are different. EDIT: Besides, basses need setup every now and then anyway as necks move over time and with temperature/humidity changes

 

For the setup you would need an allen key for the truss rod, one for the bridge (a set is better value for money IMO as you can use, on multiple instruments) a gauge feeler, a small metal ruler that can measure mm or less (some people do without these last two items but I think they are totally worth the little money) a screwdriver for the bridge saddles, ine for the pickup height and a capo. All that cost me around £40. All those things need adjustment together though, they rarely work in isolation

Edited February 20, 2023 by Paolo85

[PaulThePlug]

Hi... as mentioned above.

Rotosound Jazz Flats in 45-105 is a great place to start... (I use Adagio Flats 45-100, mainly because they are cheap, but they are also a good string)

Tension of Flatwound Strings are generally a little higher than Roundwound strings.

So what you have experienced with the neck and action is not unusual...

If you are competent with tools, and have a 'feel'... car or bike maintenance, and have a good fitting allen key, no reason you to not give the truss rod a tweak yourself... take a look at YouTube, and download the Fender set up guide 1/8 to 1/4 turn at a time, then leave for half an hour... post ya location, someone in North Yorks may be local and give it a look.

 

Have a read of this from Gerry @ Haze Guitars...

https://hazeguitars.com/trussrodsmadeeasy

 

Post a pic of ya Westfield...

[rwillett]

2 hours ago, KingBollock said:

You could try detuning the bass to something like D standard (D C G F instead of E A D G). This would loosen the tension from the neck but still be playable while you do some research to decide if you’d be confident enough to have a crack at setting the neck relief yourself (often, confidence is key).

 

I find this site useful:

https://www.studybass.com/gear/bass-setup/adjusting-neck-relief/

I'll have a look at the site. I did glance down the nexk and see a large amount of fluff on what I am assuming is an allen key hole.

 

Thanks

Rob

[rwillett]

2 hours ago, Paolo85 said:

So your previous strings were also flats? They weren't more rugged?

A lot of people are happy with the Rotos, so if they work for you that's great. If at some point they start feeling like hard work (eg your hands get tired easily) or you try a different bass somewhere else and like the feeling of other strings then you can look for more info.

Yes Roto 40-100 refers to the gauge of the rotosound. Still, you have no guarantee that the truss rod would not need adjustment with thinner strings. The old bass may have had strings with completely different tension regardless of the gauge. All strings are different. EDIT: Besides, basses need setup every now and then anyway as necks move over time and with temperature/humidity changes

 

For the setup you would need an allen key for the truss rod, one for the bridge (a set is better value for money IMO as you can use, on multiple instruments) a gauge feeler, a small metal ruler that can measure mm or less (some people do without these last two items but I think they are totally worth the little money) a screwdriver for the bridge saddles, ine for the pickup height and a capo. All that cost me around £40. All those things need adjustment together though, they rarely work in isolation

The old strings were not flats. I now know the difference as I pulled them out the bin

 

The new Rotosounds feel easy to play to be honest, my fingers were slightly overshooting where they needed to be as I moved up and down the neck.  I hadn't realised the bass strings had such different tensions, now I know. Its always good to learn and I'm very happy to try new things out. I hadn't realised basses needed setup overtime. As I live in North Yorkshire, the weather is constant, it's always raining and it's always cold

 

Allen keys are not an issue I have good tools like that as my father used to sell quality tools and I have built up a decent collection of Wera kit. Not quite Snap-On league, but good german stuff. I actually have all the other stuff as well as I have a side business doing 3d printing for astrophotography.

 

The only issue is knowing what to do and how to do it, thats the bit I'm lacking, but I'll have a look at the various sites and see if I can make it work.

 

I've also got in touch with a bloke in Leeds, Beej Guitars, and if I'm not keen on the DIY route, I'll drop it off there.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[rwillett]

1 hour ago, PaulThePlug said:

Hi... as mentioned above.

Rotosound Jazz Flats in 45-105 is a great place to start... (I use Adagio Flats 45-100, mainly because they are cheap, but they are also a good string)

Tension of Flatwound Strings are generally a little higher than Roundwound strings.

So what you have experienced with the neck and action is not unusual...

If you are competent with tools, and have a 'feel'... car or bike maintenance, and have a good fitting allen key, no reason you to not give the truss rod a tweak yourself... take a look at YouTube, and download the Fender set up guide 1/8 to 1/4 turn at a time, then leave for half an hour... post ya location, someone in North Yorks may be local and give it a look.

 

Have a read of this from Gerry @ Haze Guitars...

https://hazeguitars.com/trussrodsmadeeasy

 

Post a pic of ya Westfield...

 

PaulThePlug (some great names on here),

 

Glad to hear this is not unusual, I was very worried TBH. Thankfully this is not an expensive guitar, but I have messed around with a friends Fender Precision and I'm sure that somebody far more sklled than myself would notice the difference, my El Cheapo Fender Precision Clone didn't feel that much worse. The action did (until I cocked it up) feel very low and for me it was fine. I was playing about with Garageband and just feeling my way around what I could do and I was struggling to justify buying a better guitar as my skills didn't warrant it.

 

I live in a small village called Clapham in North Yorkshire. Its between Settle and Kirkby Lonsdale, if anybody is local and wants to have a look, I'll get the pizza's and beers in from La Traviatta in Ingleton.

 

Thanks

Rob

[TheGreek]

Rob, welcome. 

You haven't done anything wrong and string choice really is a matter of choice - nothing wrong with your purchase and there is no reason to change the strings. 

 

You could alleviate most of the bow on the neck by relaxing the tension a quarter to half turn. Don't overdo it.

If this doesn't alleviate the problem completely then the same amount of adjustment the following day will move you closer to where you need to be. 

Lots of information on the net and as long as you don't overtighten (remember that you are loosening) and snap the truss rod  you can't do anything that can't be undone. 

 

The bass has been unadjusted for many years so go slowly. 

 

[PaulThePlug]

Roto Jazz 45 are a fair Standard Fit for Flats... From the Rotosound Site... Tension

RotoBass 45's

https://www.rotosound.com/product/rb45/0.045″ 48.27 lbs 0.065″ 51.30 lbs 0.085″ 47.06 lbs 0.105″ 38.60 lbs

RotoJazz 45's

https://www.rotosound.com/product/rs77ld/

0.045″ 57.46 lbs 0.065″ 58.67 lbs 0.085″

53.58 lbs 0.105″ 44.70 lbs

 

One thing to remember... 4" of string past the tuning peg, 1/2" down the hole... and wind the peg, should get 2-3 turns round the peg with the string going down..

 

It is tempting, and from my gtr days with thinner strings, to wind a couple of turns round the peg by hand before turning the machine head... this is a NO as it introduces a twist along the string length.

 

And we still want a pic! ' dem da rules...

Edited February 20, 2023 by PaulThePlug

[TheGreek]

2 hours ago, PaulThePlug said:

Rotosound Jazz Flats in 45-105 is a great place to start... (I use Adagio Flats 45-100, mainly because they are cheap, but they are also a good string)

 

I was looking at these on eBay recently as replacement for the roundwounds on my recently acquired G&L.

 

Are they worth a go?

[PaulThePlug]

Thought you had them and the Olympia a while back?

I've got Adagio flats on my Acoustic, P Bitsa, J Bitsa, a GSR200 Ibby, my Sons Vintage Fretless, and a set ready for my new SR300PP 'Passive P' (Thanks to Amy & Colin @ Advantage Music)

Plus the Olympia gtr flats on my Eppi LP and a Bowl Back Acoustic.

Bang for Buck... yep.

E bay best offer is a couple of quid less than asking...

Edited February 20, 2023 by PaulThePlug

[rwillett]

1 hour ago, PaulThePlug said:

Roto Jazz 45 are a fair Standard Fit for Flats... From the Rotosound Site... Tension

RotoBass 45's

https://www.rotosound.com/product/rb45/0.045″ 48.27 lbs 0.065″ 51.30 lbs 0.085″ 47.06 lbs 0.105″ 38.60 lbs

RotoJazz 45's

https://www.rotosound.com/product/rs77ld/

0.045″ 57.46 lbs 0.065″ 58.67 lbs 0.085″

53.58 lbs 0.105″ 44.70 lbs

 

One thing to remember... 4" of string past the tuning peg, 1/2" down the hole... and wind the peg, should get 2-3 turns round the peg with the string going down..

 

It is tempting, and from my gtr days with thinner strings, to wind a couple of turns round the peg by hand before turning the machine head... this is a NO as it introduces a twist along the string length.

 

And we still want a pic! ' dem da rules...

Thanks for the information on the strings and tension, thats quite a lot to me.

 

Oddly enough thats more or less what I did for winding the strings up. Sheer chance though.

 

One Westone 1A Thunder and one El Cheapo Westfield Precision Bass Clone with relaxed strings.  I pulled the Westone out of the attic after enjoying playing the ECWPBC  so much. Still no better on it than I was before though

 

I don't actually live in a bed sit, we borrowed the mattress at Xmas for guests and have still to return it...

 

Thanks

Rob

[PaulThePlug]

Loves an 'ol Westone, had a Spectrum SX...

As for the Westfield, once sorted, All-Good, might be lacking in the pickup, but the flats might be a leveler on tone.

Look out for a Wilkinson P Pickup, or somesuch in the FS section... but open that door carefully... shut it quick if ya smell GAS!

Edited February 20, 2023 by PaulThePlug

[rwillett]

I might have a look in the FS section, keep my credit card away from it though.....

[TheGreek]

Been a member 7 hours and the GAS has already got him.

 

Start as you mean to go on.

[Geek99]

You, mr @rwillett, are in exactly the right place. And, I might add, Welcome to The Light. At least you’re an ex-guitard now, so you can have hope 

[Geek99]

10 minutes ago, rwillett said:

I might have a look in the FS section, keep my credit card away from it though.....

That’s not the scary part, beware “trades” 

you get sucked into GAS “without needing to spend money” because it’s “just a swap really” and then you start seeing the phrase “…and money my way “ from sellers and it’s still “just a swap” 🤦‍♂️ ….

[jd56hawk]

10 hours ago, rwillett said:

 

Sorry, I should've simply stated that they're high tension instead of asking it.

Edited February 21, 2023 by jd56hawk