Should I be worried about the neck with new strings on cheap bass?

[Mykesbass]

Have a look at the pinned thread in the repairs and technical section of the forum. You may find a helpful member locally who is confident/competent enough to do a truss rod adjustment for you.

[rwillett]

56 minutes ago, Mykesbass said:

Have a look at the pinned thread in the repairs and technical section of the forum. You may find a helpful member locally who is confident/competent enough to do a truss rod adjustment for you.

Thanks, wasn't aware of that section.

 

Rob

[rwillett]

9 hours ago, TheGreek said:

Been a member 7 hours and the GAS has already got him.

 

Start as you mean to go on.

If you think GAS is bad here, check out the astronomers and what they get into Some of them are well into $200,000 mounts (thats the bit the telescope sits on), $50,000 scopes (and that's not that high end) and cameras that are  only $10,000.  Some of the photography sessions might take 30-40 days at 2-3 hours per night. Now thats obsessive.

 

I'm lucky that I live in a part of the world where 100% cloud cover can go on for weeks, so absolutely no point in me spending a lot as it will sit in the garage. So long as I keep telling myself that, I'll be fine. Just to be clear, I do not spend that sort of money on astronomy, you need to be a US lawyer or US dentist, or have shares in a UK oil company to spend that money.

 

Rob

 

[tauzero]

On 20/02/2023 at 18:23, TheGreek said:

Rob, welcome. 

You haven't done anything wrong and string choice really is a matter of choice - nothing wrong with your purchase and there is no reason to change the strings. 

 

You could alleviate most of the bow on the neck by relaxing the tension a quarter to half turn. Don't overdo it.

If this doesn't alleviate the problem completely then the same amount of adjustment the following day will move you closer to where you need to be. 

Lots of information on the net and as long as you don't overtighten (remember that you are loosening) and snap the truss rod  you can't do anything that can't be undone. 

 

The bass has been unadjusted for many years so go slowly. 

 

 

As it's a forward bow, the truss rod needs tightening, not loosening.

[Geek99]

On 20/02/2023 at 19:23, TheGreek said:

 

I was looking at these on eBay recently as replacement for the roundwounds on my recently acquired G&L.

 

Are they worth a go?

Yes I use nothing else

[Ralf1e]

It is important you don't try to adjust the truss rod with the strings under full tension. Slacken them off between each adjustment or put tension on the neck physically yourself to take tension off the strings to help the truss be adjusted.

You don't mention if your original strings were the same gauge 45-105. If they were say 100's then your nut slots may be tight with the 105's and the strings might not even be seated properly in the nut or bridge.

Have a peek and see if there is any daylight to be seen in the slots under the strings.

See how high the string clearance is at the first fret. It should by tiny.

I am talking basics here but you did say you were without experience so I figure going back to basics won't hurt.

If you have a straight edge loosen the strings and then adjust the truss rod until the neck it straight. It will then slightly bend forward giving you neck relief when under tension. Measure the relief and repeat as required until you are happy. 

One last thing. It has been stood a long time. Make sure the neck bolts are nice and tight as well before you do any of the above as they may well have settled while up in the attic. Not the best place for guitars.

Let it and you rest between steady tweaking sessions.

It will come good.

Edited February 22, 2023 by Ralf1e
Typo

[TheGreek]

12 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

As it's a forward bow, the truss rod needs tightening, not loosening.

 

THANK YOU!!!

 

The neck on my Yamaha BB615 has a front bow...because I'd let the truss rod off. I'd hoped that this would straighten the neck.

 

I realise now after reading your post that it needed tightening!! 😖😖

 

I've taken up most of the tension and the relief in the neck is much better.

 

I'll have a look tomorrow after the neck has had time to settle and readjust it. 

 

Again,  thank you. 👏👏

[rwillett]

13 hours ago, Ralf1e said:

It is important you don't try to adjust the truss rod with the strings under full tension. Slacken them off between each adjustment or put tension on the neck physically yourself to take tension off the strings to help the truss be adjusted.

You don't mention if your original strings were the same gauge 45-105. If they were say 100's then your nut slots may be tight with the 105's and the strings might not even be seated properly in the nut or bridge.

Have a peek and see if there is any daylight to be seen in the slots under the strings.

See how high the string clearance is at the first fret. It should by tiny.

I am talking basics here but you did say you were without experience so I figure going back to basics won't hurt.

If you have a straight edge loosen the strings and then adjust the truss rod until the neck it straight. It will then slightly bend forward giving you neck relief when under tension. Measure the relief and repeat as required until you are happy. 

One last thing. It has been stood a long time. Make sure the neck bolts are nice and tight as well before you do any of the above as they may well have settled while up in the attic. Not the best place for guitars.

Let it and you rest between steady tweaking sessions.

It will come good.

 

Thanks for this. The flatwounds are significantly thicker than the originals.

 

I'll check the nut, the bridge looks OK. I'll also check the neck bolts.

 

No issues with going back to basics, thats how I'll learn.

[Paolo85]

If this helps, this is Fender's setup guide https://support.fender.com/en-us/knowledgebase/article/KA-01903

 

I am not an expert so when I do a first setup, I pretty much follow the guide to the letter (setting shimming aside unless it turns out there is a problem there). Once I get to those measurements for everything, then I adjust further. If the bass has very good fretwork it may allow for lower action (so less relief, or lower string heith at the bridge - less relief is my preference). If the bass has bumpy frets and it buzzes, then it is a balancing act. If it buzzes at the first five frets then you need to add relief. If it buzzes after that you need to raise the strings. Sometimes, if there are one of two spots where it buzzes indicating that there is a significant bump, I'd consider keeping a bit of buzz rather than having to set action extremely high. EDIT: note that things can spiral down, if you add relief the neck is more bowed so implicitly requires more string height to avoid buzz around the 9th-12th frets, so I found myself going up a lot with both relief and string height to run after specific bumps.

Even better, frets can be filed, I was quite scared about doing it at first but now I do it regularly on cheap basses if needed. If done with care and decent tools doing damage is unlikely. One can argue that if there is a significant bump the bass is already "damaged" to start with and will only get better.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Paolo85

[rwillett]

5 hours ago, Paolo85 said:

If this helps, this is Fender's setup guide https://support.fender.com/en-us/knowledgebase/article/KA-01903

 

I am not an expert so when I do a first setup, I pretty much follow the guide to the letter (setting shimming aside unless it turns out there is a problem there). Once I get to those measurements for everything, then I adjust further. If the bass has very good fretwork it may allow for lower action (so less relief, or lower string heith at the bridge - less relief is my preference). If the bass has bumpy frets and it buzzes, then it is a balancing act. If it buzzes at the first five frets then you need to add relief. If it buzzes after that you need to raise the strings. Sometimes, if there are one of two spots where it buzzes indicating that there is a significant bump, I'd consider keeping a bit of buzz rather than having to set action extremely high. EDIT: note that things can spiral down, if you add relief the neck is more bowed so implicitly requires more string height to avoid buzz around the 9th-12th frets, so I found myself going up a lot with both relief and string height to run after specific bumps.

Even better, frets can be filed, I was quite scared about doing it at first but now I do it regularly on cheap basses if needed. If done with care and decent tools doing damage is unlikely. One can argue that if there is a significant bump the bass is already "damaged" to start with and will only get better.

Paulo,

 

We're now into advanced stuff

 

I'm slowly reducing tension, tightening the truss rod and then after an hour (as I'm flat out at work, around a day later TBH) or so, I'll retune and see what its like. Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.

 

I also have to confess that I brought a second hand Fender Jazz bass yesterday. Circa 2000 MIJ model, I went in for a few plectrums and stayed for around two hours trying things out. It was such a good setup and so much fun, that it seemed a shame not to. The neck was beautful to use, it just worked for me. The tones were great as well. I tried every bass they had and just kept coming back to the Fender.  In the end it was a choice between a cheap bass (which was very, very good) and the Jazz which was brilliant. The Jazz has some scuffs on it, but it wssn't too expensive. So I now have a Westfield El Cheapo Precision Bass Clone (WECPBC) (which is going to have the pickups replaced, once I get the neck sorted out) and the Fender Jazz.

 

Somewhat surprisingly the Chief Financial Officer wasn't too bothered when I told her, suspect this means she's secretly spent even more than I did

 

I'll keep this thread updated with my slow progress on the WECPBC as well.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

[rwillett]

5 hours ago, Paolo85 said:

If this helps, this is Fender's setup guide https://support.fender.com/en-us/knowledgebase/article/KA-01903

 

I am not an expert so when I do a first setup, I pretty much follow the guide to the letter (setting shimming aside unless it turns out there is a problem there). Once I get to those measurements for everything, then I adjust further. If the bass has very good fretwork it may allow for lower action (so less relief, or lower string heith at the bridge - less relief is my preference). If the bass has bumpy frets and it buzzes, then it is a balancing act. If it buzzes at the first five frets then you need to add relief. If it buzzes after that you need to raise the strings. Sometimes, if there are one of two spots where it buzzes indicating that there is a significant bump, I'd consider keeping a bit of buzz rather than having to set action extremely high. EDIT: note that things can spiral down, if you add relief the neck is more bowed so implicitly requires more string height to avoid buzz around the 9th-12th frets, so I found myself going up a lot with both relief and string height to run after specific bumps.

Even better, frets can be filed, I was quite scared about doing it at first but now I do it regularly on cheap basses if needed. If done with care and decent tools doing damage is unlikely. One can argue that if there is a significant bump the bass is already "damaged" to start with and will only get better.

Thanks for this. I've had a quick look at the fender guide, really interesting.

 

One thing that I did think about is once I get the cheapo clone sorted is to 3D print height gauges that are just right. We can print to 0.05mm high, though I suspect thats a bit of marketing flannel, and its more likely 0.07 to 0.08mm tolerance. I know that 0.1mm is certainly doable as I've measured that on a regular basis. 0.1-0.2mm might be all thats needed anyway. Food for thought, but not for this weekend.

 

Rob

[Paolo85]

1 hour ago, rwillett said:

.

 

I also have to confess that I brought a second hand Fender Jazz bass yesterday. Circa 2000 MIJ model, I went in for a few plectrums and stayed for around two hours trying things out. It was such a good setup and so much fun, that it seemed a shame not to. The neck was beautful to use, it just worked for me. The tones were great as well. I tried every bass they had and just kept coming back to the Fender.  In the end it was a choice between a cheap bass (which was very, very good) and the Jazz which was brilliant. The Jazz has some scuffs on it, but it wssn't too expensive. So I now have a Westfield El Cheapo Precision Bass Clone (WECPBC) (which is going to have the pickups replaced, once I get the neck sorted out) and the Fender Jazz.

 

 

Ha! That's a beautiful thing!

 

If you can print gauges that's amazing. I tjink I bought a set on Amazon for some £15 but I cannot tell hiw precise they are. As said, Fender measurements are a starting point, then everything is adjusted based on preference and what the bass allows, so being spot on matters bit to a point

[rwillett]

2 hours ago, Paolo85 said:

Ha! That's a beautiful thing!

 

If you can print gauges that's amazing. I tjink I bought a set on Amazon for some £15 but I cannot tell hiw precise they are. As said, Fender measurements are a starting point, then everything is adjusted based on preference and what the bass allows, so being spot on matters bit to a point

Printing specific sized gauges is pretty easy to be honest. Its easy enough to accomodate the curve of the neck, so a gauge can be specific to a neck shape. I assume that it is a regular arc of a curve. Once you have that, making a dozen at 0.1mm height intervals is a quick change in the design program. The image below is for an neck curve at 12" and is 20 degrees of the arc and is far too big TBH. Thats 31min on my printer, at very high accuracy. Easy to slip that under the string and see if it fits.

 

[Paolo85]

That's rather cool! You only measure the relief under the E string so you go on the neck for some 3mm or less but I guess a bit of curve would help even then

[Ralf1e]

4 hours ago, Paolo85 said:

Ha! That's a beautiful thing!

 

If you can print gauges that's amazing. I tjink I bought a set on Amazon for some £15 but I cannot tell hiw precise they are. As said, Fender measurements are a starting point, then everything is adjusted based on preference and what the bass allows, so being spot on matters bit to a point

photos are compulsary

[Geek99]

On 22/02/2023 at 12:52, TheGreek said:

 

THANK YOU!!!

 

The neck on my Yamaha BB615 has a front bow...because I'd let the truss rod off. I'd hoped that this would straighten the neck.

 

I realise now after reading your post that it needed tightening!! 😖😖

 

I've taken up most of the tension and the relief in the neck is much better.

 

I'll have a look tomorrow after the neck has had time to settle and readjust it. 

 

Again,  thank you. 👏👏

I often bend the neck in the direction I’m attempting to move it do that the load on the rod is reduced whilst it’s being moved. 

[Waddo Soqable]

38 minutes ago, Geek99 said:

I often bend the neck in the direction I’m attempting to move it do that the load on the rod is reduced whilst it’s being moved. 

That's the recommended method for rickenbacker basses I believe , bend the neck by hand then do the rod/rods up to suit 

[Geek99]

13 hours ago, Waddo Soqable said:

That's the recommended method for rickenbacker basses I believe , bend the neck by hand then do the rod/rods up to suit 

Works well with fenders too, you still have to let them settle though

Edited February 24, 2023 by Geek99

[rwillett]

On 23/02/2023 at 19:34, Ralf1e said:

photos are compulsary

One Fender Jazz, MIJ, Lake Placid.

 

Really nice to play. My 16yr old daughter said that is a "sick guitar" when she saw it. I am led to believe that means she likes it, but what do I know....

 

Took the El Cheapo Precision Bass Clone to Promenade Music to look at the neck. Spent last 72 hours gently tweaking the truss rod, they reckon it needs a shim, but no damage done so far. <phew>

 

Rob

[rwillett]

So  the El Cheapo Precision Bass Clone came back from Promenade Music in Morecombe. Big thumbs up to Gary who was exceptionally nice and helpful and didn't make me feel like a complete prat when I asked him stupid questions.

 

Basically the neck/body will not take the tension that the flatwounds put on it. he tried shimming and other stuff and at the end of the day he said it wasn't worth the effort to fix it. He didn't try to flog me another guitar or upsell me anything at all, which was nice. He charged me £25 and that included new non flatwound strings and the neck adjusted for the new strings. Absolutely nothing to argue about at that price and almost seemed embarrased wiith that as he said he didn;t do a great deal. Simply talking to him was worth that TBH. I did have a look at a few other bass guitars in the basement, but thankfully the Chief Financial Controller rang and told me to it was my turn to walk the dog along the promenade, so walked away and didn't spend any money. I know who's in charge and its not me.  Also GAS is under control if you exclude a Fender Jazz, new laptop stand, ProSonus input box, some cables, Apple Mainstage, Guitar Pro 8 and bass lessons with a nice bloke in Sedbergh.

 

It plays very nice still, but nowhere near as nice as the Fender Jazz to which I am becoming rather attached.

 

Rob

 

 

Edited March 15, 2023 by rwillett

[mcnach]

1 hour ago, rwillett said:

So  the El Cheapo Precision Bass Clone came back from Promenade Music in Morecombe. Big thumbs up to Gary who was exceptionally nice and helpful and didn't make me feel like a complete prat when I asked him stupid questions.

 

Basically the neck/body will not take the tension that the flatwounds put on it. he tried shimming and other stuff and at the end of the day he said it wasn't worth the effort to fix it. He didn't try to flog me another guitar or upsell me anything at all, which was nice. He charged me £25 and that included new non flatwound strings and the neck adjusted for the new strings. Absolutely nothing to argue about at that price and almost seemed embarrased wiith that as he said he didn;t do a great deal. Simply talking to him was worth that TBH. I did have a look at a few other bass guitars in the basement, but thankfully the Chief Financial Controller rang and told me to it was my turn to walk the dog along the promenade, so walked away and didn't spend any money. I know who's in charge and its not me.  Also GAS is under control if you exclude a new laptop stand, ProSonus input box, some cables, Apple Mainstage, Guitar Pro 8 and bass lessons with a nice bloke in Sedbergh.

 

It plays very nice still, but nowhere near as nice as the Fender Jazz to which I am becoming rather attached.

 

Rob

 

 

 

 

I'd get a second opinion.

 

 

[TheGreek]

1 hour ago, rwillett said:

Also GAS is under control if you exclude a new laptop stand, ProSonus input box, some cables, Apple Mainstage, Guitar Pro 8 and bass lessons with a nice bloke in Sedbergh.

 

Please move to Basschat Famous Quotes thread.

 

What did the Romans ever do for us?

[rwillett]

1 hour ago, mcnach said:

 

 

I'd get a second opinion.

 

 

 

As a second opinion would involve a minimum of a three hour round trip or more likely two x three hour round trips, it's not a feasible option.