broken bass

[NickA]

Our orchestra owns this rather dodgy old bass.  We loan it out to people who are bass less but want to play. 

 

It's broken, the bit the end pin goes into came out the bass, the strings went slack and the soundpost fell over. 

 

Needs bodging as we have Mahler 5 to play ( for our sins) in a few weeks.

 

Advice on putting up a sound post and fixing the end pin gratefully received.  We'd get bass bags to do it, but the cost would be more than the bass is worth I fear.

 

Nb: the tailpiece is really a three string one drilled out for four strings, poorly attached to the end pin with solid wire not gut or cable and the bridge is back to front ... just to add to the woes!

[Beedster]

Pics might help? 

[NickA]

I'll get some tomorrow when I pay it a visit on its sick bed.

[JoeEvans]

If you're going for DIY the main thing is to use hide glue throughout, so that your work is reversible. It doesn't smell great but it's otherwise quite nice to work with.

[NickA]

Yes that's the stuff really.  My dad had care of all my local area's school cellos ...there was usually something fishy bubbling on the stove.

 

Bass bags want to, ideally, replace the bottom block, or failing that, fill and rebore the existing block then taper fit a new end pin.  We're talking £300+ for the latter, lots more for the former.  Suggesting a whole new tail piece too £30+ for the parts). 

 

I just don't think it's worth it.

 

Given the state and quality of the bass, I'm thinking "araldite".  But going for a proper look later. Photos to follow.

[JoeEvans]

I think it would be fine if the bottom block was filled or repaired with modern glues, if the block itself remains glued in place with hide glue.

WEST system epoxy is amazing stuff for imaginative bodging. You mix up a two part glue which is a thick, clear liquid, then you can add filler powders to get the right consistency to work with and the right balance of strength and sandability when set. People build wooden boats with it with no mechanical fixings at all.

[NickA]

Went to visit the orchestra's bass tonight.  It's actually not a bad little thing beneath the bodges and the long list of things it "could do with".  In truth it needs:

 

A new end pin assembly fitting (probably about £250),  the existing block is solid, but the hole is the wrong shape.  It needs filling and properly reaming out to fit a larger end pin.

A new tail piece (about £40 for the tail piece, another £10 for the wire and who knows for the fitting).  The esisting one is a very badly modded 3-string one, painted wood, held to the end pin with think inflexible wire.

A new set of strings (£220)

A new bridge fitted (£150) ... the bridge on it has been turned 180o so is back to front, somone has then modified the curve of the bridge to match the fingure board; if we turn it the right way then the action is all wrong!

The sound post putting back (£?? mabe £30)

 

All told maybe £700 of work.

 

On the other hand, it's a solid little 3/4 fully carved bass.  Hard to tell what woods due to the heavy stain and varnish, bu the fingerboard is painted "hard wood" and it's a bit wider than the rather worn neck (which is narrow and probably the original 3-string one).  There is some filler on the stretcher that supports the sound post (see photo of the inside), but otherwise the inside looks in decent order.  No idea how much it would be worth if fixed up.  I've known this bass for 20+ years and never had a good opinion of it, but maybe with some TLC it would be OK.

 

We could bodge it by gluing the end pin into the block (West Epoxy! ... good idea, I have some in the garage), re-attaching the tailpiece using rigging wire or dyneema rope, putting up with the reversed bridge and re-using the existing strings.  Then all we need is the sound post re-erecting.

 

Opinions ladies and gentlemen please.

 

Pictures below:

 

[JoeEvans]

If the action is ok with the bridge the wrong way round I would just leave that as is. At some stage a new bridge could be fitted.

I think I'd use hide glue to fix the endpin fitting back in, just because at some stage someone might want to rebore the hole for a new one, and globs of rock hard epoxy would make that tricky.

I recently replaced my tailpiece with four loops of 2mm dyneema - I posted pics on here if you're interested. £20 for the materials and it made a big improvement to the sound of the bass. Might be worth a try?

[NickA]

Think we're getting the block bored and a whole new 10mm end pin fitted.    We found a useable tail piece on an old laminate bass that is even more broken. Dyneema is what I'll use to fit it; beats wire on basses and on boats!

 

Interesting it improved the sound; maybe I should replace the wire on my own bass with dyneema ( yards of it in the garage).

 

Might try changing the strings for an old set of helicores have. Bridge can wait for now - at least till we know what it sounds like!

[JoeEvans]

13 minutes ago, NickA said:

Think we're getting the block bored and a whole new 10mm end pin fitted.    We found a useable tail piece on an old laminate bass that is even more broken. Dyneema is what I'll use to fit it; beats wire on basses and on boats!

 

Interesting it improved the sound; maybe I should replace the wire on my own bass with dyneema ( yards of it in the garage).

 

Might try changing the strings for an old set of helicores have. Bridge can wait for now - at least till we know what it sounds like!

I think a dyneema tail wire slightly improved the sound on my bass, but it was going the whole hog and getting rid of the tailpiece altogether that made the really big improvement.

[neilp]

I think that bass deserves a little better than what you have planned for it!

[Burns-bass]

On 24/02/2023 at 15:02, NickA said:

Think we're getting the block bored and a whole new 10mm end pin fitted.    We found a useable tail piece on an old laminate bass that is even more broken. Dyneema is what I'll use to fit it; beats wire on basses and on boats!

 

Interesting it improved the sound; maybe I should replace the wire on my own bass with dyneema ( yards of it in the garage).

 

Might try changing the strings for an old set of helicores have. Bridge can wait for now - at least till we know what it sounds like!

I have a spare set of Innovations if you want them?

 

Happy to donate to the orchestra.

 

They’re old and have been used but if they could be of use, let me know.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Burns-bass

[NickA]

On 25/02/2023 at 21:32, neilp said:

I think that bass deserves a little better than what you have planned for it!

You mày be right. It's better than I originally thought.  The table is pretty good, one mended split and no warping.

 

But until we spend a load on it we won't know.  Hopefully the orchestra coffers will get the end pin and sound post sorted, we'll get a better tail piece on there and then we'll see if it's worth doing the bridge.

 

Thing is, it total repairs go over £1200 we could have bought a decent 60s Czech laminate.

[NickA]

23 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

I have a spare set of Innovations if you want them?

Nice offer. Thanks. Which innovations are they ( assume not silver slaps!).  Think we'll try my old helicore hybrids first and see how we go.  Cheers.

[tommyjamesallen]

That’s nice old German bass and would be well worth repairing properly. I’m pretty sure plenty of people would gladly offer you £1200 for it. 

[NickA]

We're going to get it done ... without epoxy / araldite.  It's been neglected for decades.  Might be nice with some tlc.  Calling Tim Bachelar later this week.

[tommyjamesallen]

I don’t know where this bass is but I’m in Bath, and have fully restored many basses similar to this. If you’re nearby I’d be happy to take a look for you. It sounds like it could be a pretty straightforward fix up. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by tommyjamesallen

[neilp]

On 26/02/2023 at 21:49, NickA said:

You mày be right. It's better than I originally thought.  The table is pretty good, one mended split and no warping.

 

But until we spend a load on it we won't know.  Hopefully the orchestra coffers will get the end pin and sound post sorted, we'll get a better tail piece on there and then we'll see if it's worth doing the bridge.

 

Thing is, it total repairs go over £1200 we could have bought a decent 60s Czech laminate.

Even a "decent" 60s Czech laminate is a pretty unpleasant thing. Purely judging by the look of the timber and the finish, there is a nice bass there trying to get out

[neilp]

On 27/02/2023 at 15:26, tommyjamesallen said:

That’s nice old German bass and would be well worth repairing properly. I’m pretty sure plenty of people would gladly offer you £1200 for it. 

This! I'd give you the £1200 right now, as it is

[NickA]

Chaps. It's in Maltock, Derbyshire.  Tim Batchelar has the photos and is considering what's best.  I trust him with basses beyond anyone else ( in driving reach ).

 

I did play quite a nice Czech laminate at a double bass bash.  I'd always denigrated laminates before that, but my prejudices were modified.  Generally though ... and in the case of any real quality ... carved spruce all the way!

 

Re the "look of the finish" ...I think it may be ronseal, applied by our principal bassoonist whose wife had care of it for several years.  When I first met it, it was a warm honey brown ( and buzzed like f£_&).  The basoon family generally did it good..but the finish is not that of a top bass builder.

Edited March 3, 2023 by NickA

[tommyjamesallen]

Ha! Those blooming bassoons. 
Good luck with it.  I’m sureTim Bachelor will make her sing. 

[Bloopdad1]

Don't forget that it's a blockless bass (no neck block). 

Saxon/Tyrolean/southern German around 1880

It's a decent old bass and once sorted should sound better than any laminate instrument. 

Providing as you said that the table is in good nick, the work described (bridge, post, tail piece etc) is reflectively cosmetic. 

It's defiantly worth the investment. 

Once repaired get a price to have it converted to standard construction from blockless. 

That's why the fingerboard is wider than the neck - to replace the neck from a 3 string width to 4, the  conversion from blockless will need to be done first. Then you can have a new neck grafted to the new block. 

One of my basses is blockless - it has an absolutely superb sound, better than many Italian basses I've played worth well over £80k.

That's why they are often called "blockless wonders" in orchestral circles. 

[NickA]

Great info.  We'd guessed about the rather basic conversion from 3 to 4 string but that it's a "bockless wonder" is a suprise.

 

My first poke at it told me it DID have a block.  How do I tell for sure?

[Bloopdad1]

1 hour ago, NickA said:

Great info.  We'd guessed about the rather basic conversion from 3 to 4 string but that it's a "bockless wonder" is a suprise.

 

My first poke at it told me it DID have a block.  How do I tell for sure?

The "boot" joint on a blockless bass is difficult to describe. But once you know what to look for it's like night and day! 

Best thing to do is familiarise yourself with images of the boot and look through the F holes up to the base of the neck inside. 

If it's a large "pad" of wood then it's already been converted. If it looks like a narly carved boot like thing then it's original (using a mirror and torch can help). 

As long as the neck doesn't w the neck doesn't wobble it's a decent bass. 

I'll dig out a couple of pics of a boot joint later. 

Look up the tyrol / blockless bass group on Facebook. Loads of examples there. 

[Bloopdad1]

One things for sure 99.99% of all blockless basses have the distinctive "hump" where the ribs joint into the neck boot. (that's how to spot them instantly) 

They're inherently weaker than a standard constructed bass, often poorly made (beech necks) and are very expensive to convert them to blocked. 

But boy, do they sound amazing!! Out of all my basses the blockless sounds the best. 

In my section my desk partner plays a Hawkes Panormo and there's also basses by Dawson, Lowendal, Hart and Tarr. My little blockless wonder blows them all away.