Out of my depth and in need of help and encouragement

[niceguyhomer]

Went to the open mic night to end all open mic nights at The Thirsty Scholar in Manchester. The keyboard player and guitarist in my new band organise it every month so, being a team player I went along.

Something strange happened to me on the way, I’ve never felt it before but I was actually nervous – I don’t do nervous.

Anyway, we got up on stage, pub’s full of musos and we begin by playing some blues – something I’d be quite comfortable with normally but I played like a complete arsewipe (cos I’m nervous).

A couple more songs and they start letting the bands up to play to my relief. I’m actually dreading getting back up on stage for the ‘freestyle’ bit (as they call it) and almost kiss this American guy when he comes up to me and asks if I mind if he could play bass for a while....”knock ‘em out” I says.

He pulls out the most droolsome ’66 Precision out of the bag and plays the best bass grooves I’ve ever heard anywhere and for the next hour, my ears were treated to some wonderful funky, jazzy music with drums, percussion, keys, two saxes, two guitars and the best bassist in the world (to my ears).

Anyway, I get up this morning and start mulling it over whilst chewing on my bowl of porridge and I now realise why I was nervous. I’ve never done an open mic night before on bass and I’m not very good at improvisation.

I realise that I’ve spent the last four years learning songs on bass and if you came to any of the gigs I’ve done, you’d be forgiven for thinking I can play bass but after last night, I realise I can’t. I’m a guitarist who can play some songs quite well on bass.

Lessons have given me technique and I know my way around a fretboard but my playing’s mechanical and I can’t ‘groove’ to save my life.

Any tips on how to become a proper bass player?

Edited April 27, 2009 by niceguyhomer

[maxrossell]

I guess it's a matter of "how do you get to Carnegie Hall".

But really, one of my old guitar teachers described improvisation as "taking bits of other stuff and putting them together in a different context". And it's true. You watch anyone improvise, you'll realise they have a series of licks they build their improv around, a different set for different keys and modes and so on, and for different styles. They're just licks they will have heard elsewhere and adapted for their own uses. Learn a few dozen of those, make them your own, figure out ways to chain 'em together. That's the basis for most substantial improv. The more you do it, the more fluid you'll get at it until you know it so well that you're making up killer stuff on the spot.

[Stylon Pilson]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473150' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:39 AM']Lessons have given me technique and I know my way around a fretboard but my playing’s mechanical and I can’t ‘groove’ to save my life.

Any tips on how to become a proper bass player?[/quote]

Do the things that scare you. Next time the American guy comes up and asks to take your place, politely decline. Sure, last night you got out of having to put yourself up there and be vulnerable in front of the audience, but you also lost the opportunity to advance.

S.P.

[Dr.Dave]

Nothing strange about being nervous in an environment that's unsusual for you.

I think that now you're playing blues you'll have already seen how many patterns and runs are so similar and be coming up with some of your own - even if they're learned rather than improvised. Maybe slotting run A from song A into the middle song B that's in a different key. Mixing and matching.

As you do more of this it will start to become second nature and leave you much more confident to jump up on a stage and improvise. Improvising will give you more confidence to start lobbing runs off the top of your head into the middle of your regular set. So the circle goes on.

Groove comes from relaxation and confidence. You're confident enough to come on here on a public bass players forum and ask for a few pointers and , having met you a few times , I know you're intelligent enough and interested enough to learn. You also put a lot of effort into your current gig rather than just play the notes and not think about it till the next show.

You went through a phase of buying and selling gear a lot not to show off but to find the right tools to use - what's that if it's not putting a massive affort into improving as a musician? The playing side doesn't yeild such instant results but you can approach it in the same methodical way and learn from your experiments.

Go see 66 man again , steal his lines - adapt them , practise them - and watch them turn ito your grooves , not by magic but by your own efforts.

All that said , then , I think you're in a newish musical environment for you and are worrying too much that you're walking when you should be running. Take it steady away ,Alan, and let your skills and confidence build more naturally.

[OldGit]

Ha ha yeah Open Mics are like that.
We have a regular bass and drums duo come and play ours. They are stunning together- the bass is fantastic the interplay stunning. Check them out here

However they can't cope as backing bass and drums for random open mic singers It's just out of their comfort zone

Go back to the jam night and make a note of every tune played. Go home and listen to them on youtube. Don't "learn" them per se as jam night versions go awry, specially when singing guitarists are leading the tune and dropping beats and bars here and there but get it into your head. Then when it comes up again you will be expecting the chord changes.

A lot of jamming is about having some idea of where the chords are likely to go. Loads of tunes follow patterns like the circle of fiths, minor run downs or a 12 bar/three chord jobbie but then there are exceptions to every rule; Listen to Need your love so bad for an example of a mutated 12 bar blues


So the more stuff you've played the better you will do. Of course there will always be stuff you have no chance on.. If you've never heard I predict a Riot it's almost impossible to guess where it will go.

As. as the man said, "boy you gotta practice"
In this case just work through your CD collection fro Abba to Zappa and lift riffs and lines from everything - including the melodies and lead breaks

[bigd1]

From what you have written I think you have done most of your playing in your "comfort zone" as in you have played with a band/fellow musicians you are very familiar with.
Go out and play with musicians you don't know, play styles you are not comfortable with. Yes it is a "fly by the seat of your pants" thing but that's how you learn. If you f~@k it up, learn from it and do better next time.
Go to auditions you don't think you want to get, use it to get experience of playing different music .
Open mike nights tend to just go down the blues jam route, from what you have said you can do that. Have a go at what you can't do. You never know you might love it and end up playing a style you never thought you would.
I have been a musician for about 30 years, in that time I've never liked listening to or playing Jazz. 3 weeks ago I was asked to play for a jazz group playing at an opening night of a new Jazz & Blues club. Thought I'd give it ago, if group didn't like what I do on bass this would show in the rehearsal. After 3 rehearsals we played the gig last Friday night, we played really well and the audience loved. From my point of view I'm really enjoying it, I think I sound like a blues/rock bass player trying to play jazz but it can only get better, and the band is doing very well.

Dale

Edited April 27, 2009 by bigd1

[chris_b]

Hi Al, you CAN play bass. You can play it WELL; at least several bands think so, so that makes you a good bass player! There will always be someone who can play better than you and as long as you are playing your best and still learning then don't worry. Take it all in and make sure you're copying all the best bits. That's how you improve.

If you really want to feel better, next time 66man gets up make sure you put him with a crap drummer!! That usually evens out the playing field!

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='473156' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:47 AM']I guess it's a matter of "how do you get to Carnegie Hall".

But really, one of my old guitar teachers described improvisation as "taking bits of other stuff and putting them together in a different context". And it's true. You watch anyone improvise, you'll realise they have a series of licks they build their improv around, a different set for different keys and modes and so on, and for different styles. They're just licks they will have heard elsewhere and adapted for their own uses. Learn a few dozen of those, make them your own, figure out ways to chain 'em together. That's the basis for most substantial improv. The more you do it, the more fluid you'll get at it until you know it so well that you're making up killer stuff on the spot.[/quote]

I think there's a lot of truth in this answer, being armed with a variety of available lines and passages which are well practised is a great start to learning how to piece together some phrases/lines/grooves that can mean something on the spot. Although I would be cautious about being too 'lick' orientated as great improvisors use less licks and more 'ideas' and there is the hard part. In order to be able to successfully convey your musical ideas first you need to have them, then you need the mastery over your instrument to get them out. The answer to that little statement is a full book and many hours listening and probably some high level tuition. That would be for a top flight improvisor, and I only know a handful of musicians from a 20 year career who really do improvise, guys that I've played with include Iain Ballamy, Mike Walker, Julian Arguilles, Iain Dixon, Jim Mullen, Mike Gorman, Mike Outram, Gareth Lockrane, Andy Schofield, Les Chisnall, they are all top improvisors
At a level of wanting to be able to feel comfy on a jam session night as I said there is a lot of good info in the answer I have quoted.

Finally, grooving is a nebulous term, If you can hold a solid line together for a song then you are grooving, being an in demand bass player in your area should tell you that you're doing that fine, being able to jam and try out your ideas is where your challenge as a musician lies and hopefully you'll enjoy it, there'll be time when you're sh*t scared and times when you feel you've played your ass off but it's all good

P.S Al, you also have Gary Culshaw on your doorstep (I already passed his number to someone else this week) have a couple of lessons with him, he is one of the North Wests most absolutely monster improvising bass players, groovy as hell too.

Edited April 27, 2009 by jakesbass

[Beedster]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='473156' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:47 AM']I guess it's a matter of "how do you get to Carnegie Hall".

But really, one of my old guitar teachers described improvisation as "taking bits of other stuff and putting them together in a different context". And it's true. You watch anyone improvise, you'll realise they have a series of licks they build their improv around, a different set for different keys and modes and so on, and for different styles. They're just licks they will have heard elsewhere and adapted for their own uses. Learn a few dozen of those, make them your own, figure out ways to chain 'em together. That's the basis for most substantial improv. The more you do it, the more fluid you'll get at it until you know it so well that you're making up killer stuff on the spot.[/quote]

+1

And in relation to not being a good bass player, rubbish OK, I've never actually heard you play, but that's not the point. The other guy wasn't necessarily better, just different. The quality of a bass player can only be defined in the context of the music s/he plays. OK, he might have done stuff you can't, but you can probably do stuff he can't also, you just didn't have the confidence to get up there and do it.

As for the '66, that was part of it wasn't it? How would you have felt if he's been playing an Enciore

I work with a lot of elite athletes, and if there's one trait that predicts performance, it's confidence, pure and simple. I'd always put my money on a confident but less-skilled athlete beating an underconfident but more highly skilled opponent. Motor performance is motor performance whether it's in sport, dance, surgery or music, so what applies to the confidence-performance relationship in sport likely applies to the others, music included. Confidence comes from experience mate, so like the guys have said above, get out there and get the experience

Chris

[neepheid]

Having only been playing seriously for a year or so (oh why did I buy a bass in 2003 and use it as an ornament all that time? All that wasted time, sigh), and a veteran of ... 3 gigs (well, 3 and a half if you count a 3 song open mic appearance ha ha), I feel like this all the time. I was playing a gig with the band for the second time last week and the headliner's bass player was so much better than me. By "better" I mean more at ease, more fluid, played more fancy stuff (not in an overtly showy way, just going the scenic route from A-B sometimes instead of the flustered dash down the motorway and nearly missing the slip road kind of way that I do it). I felt a bit down in the "if that bass player went to my band and said "I'd really like to join your band" then I'd be out on my ear" sense.

However, with the Guinness haze removed I remembered what a tender novice I am and all it takes is more practice and more experience. Plus there's something to be said for someone who turns up to rehearsals/gigs on time, has own transport, can provide a rig if needed, can look after the myspace page, isn't a dick more than occasionally etc. I can only keep plugging away and hope for improvement through practice and experience. A more structured approach to learning may yield better results - must look into that.

I am useless at improvising on the fly. When we're developing songs, our guitarist comes in with something, I get the root notes and play along. I then go away and come up with something more ornate by myself. Clearly this approach doesn't work in a spontaneous live environment. So at the moment I'd have to say that not only would it be out of my comfort zone, it just won't be happening. If you think ornamental bass guitars are bad, ornamental bass players are surely ten times worse

I'm always learning though. One day it'll click, I'm sure.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473150' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:39 AM']Any tips on how to become a proper bass player?[/quote]
Just click on 'The Mighty Evolve' in me sig if you're bored and want to feel better about your playing. If you want something to aspire to, click 'Our Lord Brian Fox'.

Edited April 27, 2009 by johnnylager

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473150' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:39 AM']Something strange happened to me on the way, I’ve never felt it before but I was actually nervous – I don’t do nervous.[/quote]
Haha - I know exactly where you're coming from Al. I did an open mic last year on guitar and felt exactly the same. It was weird - done loads of gigs without feeling any nerves - but this was horrible. I also did another one on bass and like you felt out of my depth. I mentioned this to the frontman of my band who's played hundreds of gigs in loads of different bands.

He hates going to them too!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='Beedster' post='473233' date='Apr 27 2009, 11:18 AM']if there's one trait that predicts performance, it's confidence, pure and simple.[/quote]
Pretty much a guide to life right there as I'm sure you'll agree Al.

If anyone wants to be successful at any almost anything confidence and experience is the key. To do stuff when then don't have the confidence requires bravery and the ability to distinguish between actual and imagined risks.

So...smell the fear then do it anyway.

[stingrayfan]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='473262' date='Apr 27 2009, 11:58 AM']Pretty much a guide to life right there as I'm sure you'll agree Al.

If anyone wants to be successful at any almost anything confidence and experience is the key. To do stuff when then don't have the confidence requires bravery and the ability to distinguish between actual and imagined risks.

So...smell the fear then do it anyway.[/quote]
Failing that, just learn blues scales.

[xilddx]

Hit any note, if it's wrong the notes above and below will be right, so do a tasty little slide one fret up or down.

[chris_b]

I'm in the house band for a jam night and I see a lot of "good" players. These guys sound good because you don't know them, but look under the surface, or hear them again, and most of them are just ordinary players running through their party pieces or with other players that they've rehearsed with. Get them out of that context and the cracks will start to appear, even with 66man!

[Kiwi]

[quote name='stingrayfan' post='473265' date='Apr 27 2009, 12:02 PM']Failing that, just learn blues scales. [/quote]
I think I'd consider myself living proof that this approach has flaws.

[skankdelvar]

[b]Nerves[/b] - thread here [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28528"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28528[/url]

[b]Improvising[/b]: Blues bass is [i]mostly[/i] pattern based, with multiple pattern variations, [i]mostly[/i] interchangeable between songs (which is a [i]very good thing[/i]).

Try spending a week learning some "stock" patterns as if you were learning the bass lines for a song. Then a week practising the patterns in different keys.

Later, try lifting bits from one pattern and merge them with bits from another. When you can do that on the fly, you're improvising.

Sure, some blues bass players 'compose' lines as they go along; but they've either had previous musical training, or they've been doing it far longer than you. Just a matter of time and practice - sorry if that sounds unfeeling, but it's a pain barrier we all have to go through.

And, IMO, blues bass is best played understated and with restraint. For the moment, just play less notes and tell them you've got a minimalist approach

[niceguyhomer]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='473196' date='Apr 27 2009, 10:41 AM']P.S Al, you also have Gary Culshaw on your doorstep (I already passed his number to someone else this week) have a couple of lessons with him, he is one of the North Wests abolutely monster improvising bass players, groovy as hell too.[/quote]

Might be the way forward methinks - a shove in the right direction.

Confidence is a big problem for me I know it is and I play much better on my own through my Tascam and seem to clam up when I'm out of my comfort zone - eg, improvising etc. It's never been a problem when I've been playing live with the bands I've been in because I've practised the set to death and can play the songs in my sleep.

[The Funk]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473150' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:39 AM']Went to the open mic night to end all open mic nights at The Thirsty Scholar in Manchester. [...]

Something strange happened to me on the way, I’ve never felt it before but I was actually nervous – I don’t do nervous.

Anyway, we got up on stage, pub’s full of musos and we begin by playing some blues – something I’d be quite comfortable with normally but I played like a complete arsewipe (cos I’m nervous).[...]

Anyway, I get up this morning and start mulling it over whilst chewing on my bowl of porridge and I now realise why I was nervous. I’ve never done an open mic night before on bass and I’m not very good at improvisation.
[...]
Any tips on how to become a proper bass player?[/quote]

You are a proper bass player.

The first time I went to a blues jam, I misheard the guy leading it and played an entire blues song in C when it was in E. I could hear it was horribly out but I couldn't hear what the guitarists were playing. I was really nervous and the sound was really bad.

Now I find it very easy. I don't go to jams to prove anything, show off or compete with anyone and I enjoy getting up there and playing with different people.

The other thing you say about improvisation is probably something you haven't worked on much before. Keep going to the jam/open mic and do your best at coming up with things (and following the changes) each week. There's nothing wrong with standing near the keyboard player and asking him to talk you through all the changes.

Edited April 27, 2009 by The Funk

[niceguyhomer]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='473312' date='Apr 27 2009, 12:48 PM'][b]Nerves[/b] - thread here [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28528"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=28528[/url]

[b]Improvising[/b]: Blues bass is [i]mostly[/i] pattern based, with multiple pattern variations, [i]mostly[/i] interchangeable between songs (which is a [i]very good thing[/i]).

Try spending a week learning some "stock" patterns as if you were learning the bass lines for a song. Then a week practising the patterns in different keys.

Later, try lifting bits from one pattern and merge them with bits from another. When you can do that on the fly, you're improvising.

Sure, some blues bass players 'compose' lines as they go along; but they've either had previous musical training, or they've been doing it far longer than you. Just a matter of time and practice - sorry if that sounds unfeeling, but it's a pain barrier we all have to go through.

And, IMO, blues bass is best played understated and with restraint. For the moment, just play less notes and tell them you've got a minimalist approach [/quote]

I'm fine with blues - I did what you said and learned some stock lines and chop and change 'em about. I did a dep gig in front of about 200 people a couple of weeks ago at The Burnley Blues Festival - didn't know the set or what key the songs where in and I was fine / no nerves at all. Last night with jazzy / funky stuff.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Beedster' post='473233' date='Apr 27 2009, 11:18 AM']Motor performance is motor performance whether it's in sport, dance, surgery or music, so what applies to the confidence-performance relationship in sport likely applies to the others, music included. Confidence comes from experience mate, so like the guys have said above, get out there and get the experience

Chris[/quote]

+1 I only really understood this after going to music college for two years. Every few weeks we'd have to do performances to the entire department, which were marked. Believe you me nothing causes nerves like playing to 300 seated musos, all of whom want you to look worse than them (so they get better marks). To begin with it was really difficult to get through, after the first term I could put my game face on and not show the nerves at all. Byt the end of the first year I was all about those performances, they were the best bit, getting to show just how good the bands I was in were. And we absolutely rocked! The second year was a breeze after that.

Ever since then I've had no problems improvising or playing more normal gigs of any kind.Even after a long break (several years where I really didnt play) and getting back into when I was asked to dep at the last minute it wasnt a problem (didnt half cock up the first tune though ). Largely because I came to realise that very very few people hear your mistakes. Thats not an excuse to not work hard, improve, be tight, get it right, its just a fact. I made some howlers in those performances and no one (even my bass tutors) really noticed, because I covered them well, or they werent nearly as bad as I thought.

As for groove and improviation. Listen to bass/drum interaction on favourite tracks. Take a groove you love and play it for 5 minutes exactly the same. Now work out 4 variations. Play the groove alternating the standard and a differnt one of the 4 variations each time for five minutes. OK now work out a variation that only uses one note and throw that in. Now one that use a super simple rhythmic variation, (just 8th notes) but goes through the scale that the groove is in. Keep going. How many fills/variations can you figure out?? Now play the groove for five minutes, but play a variation every 4 times. Now play all the variations one after another for 5 minutes, but choose the order spontaneously. Now go for somewhere inbetween. Now you are improvising a groove. Easy...

[BassBunny]

Hi Al,
Been going trough a similar problem.
Nick gave me a couple of Guitar/Drum tracks and the chord Structures to put my own Bass line to. Realised I was really stuck for ideas. Did the first one but was really stuck coming up with something different for the second.
Realised that by doing some Chord Work, the door has started to open.
Incidently, where abouts in Manchester is it? Might come down and see if thunderthumbs fancies it.

[The Funk]

[quote name='OldGit' post='473176' date='Apr 27 2009, 10:18 AM']Need your love so bad for an example of a mutated 12 bar blues [/quote]

It'd be unfair if you got that at a blues jam but it does happen. Other songs with similar changes include Hard Times and Ain't Nobody's Business. The trick is to be able to pick the VI-II-V-I and I-IV-I-V turnarounds at the end and then fill in the blanks. Either learn them at home or do your best picking out the changes on stage - or both.

[The Funk]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473328' date='Apr 27 2009, 01:01 PM']I'm fine with blues [...] Last night with jazzy / funky stuff.[/quote]

For jazz, if you're not familiar with a bunch of standard changes, you'll find it easy to get completely lost.

For funky stuff, pick your spot and make it count. You don't have to play a lot to sound funky.