Out of my depth and in need of help and encouragement

[AM1]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473150' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:39 AM']I realise that I’ve spent the last four years learning songs on bass and if you came to any of the gigs I’ve done, you’d be forgiven for thinking I can play bass but after last night, I realise I can’t. I’m a guitarist who can play some songs quite well on bass.

Any tips on how to become a proper bass player?[/quote]

It's an epiphany moment when your past musical history becomes displaced by an improvisation experience. I found it very, very disconcerting, but I had wasted much more than four years. I have commented here before that anyone can become a bassline jukebox, but becoming a bass player is a different proposition. That statement was not well received - but unless you have experienced that epiphany moment, on any instrument, my statement has very little context. I came to the bass, having already had that epiphany moment, which is the key element directing my bass learning style.

But instead of viewing the experience negatively, it is actually a huge positive. There are many musicians who get through decades of time playing other people's music/basslines or writing their own in a band context and either come to this realisation about "becoming a player" very late, or never at all, which is a great shame. Improvisation is a vastly under-rated skill. To be a "technician" and be able to replicate another player's style or repertoire is an admirable pursuit, as is crafting up creative basslines which complement the overall music. But for me, true musicality lies in the ability to improvise. To improvise effectively, either the cultivation of a very good musical ear has taken place or there is some fundamental understanding of the underpinning rudimentary theory of music. The development of both, is a dynamite combination.

There's a few things you can do to get you started and then just go to as many blues jams as you can. Once you can improvise, it will also help in the creative process of writing basslines. I only write basic skeleton basslines for my own band but then I tend to improvise around them, you can get away with a lot doing this as long as you land on the correct notes when chords change and stick to keeping a basic groove during verses and adding bass fills in appropriate places with the drums.

Getting a few licks and fills is definitely a good start but even more fundamentally, learn modes and arpeggios. There are certain arpeggios that will always work in the blues context and then it is a case of moving these with chord changes and basing licks and fills around them. Listen to some rock n roll, the same chord progressions are often used in blues as are similar arpeggiated "melody" lines on the bass. Also, learning intervals on the fretboard will work wonders, as will 12 bar blues jamming at home. Even using basic major triads will work as a start point, i.e. 1st, 3rd, 5th and then moving them around in line with chord changes. Harmony is key - multi-instrumentation is very useful for developing harmony. Playing an instrument of harmony (or chords on the bass, which is not ideal) massively develops the ear as well as developing an innate mastery of harmony which is very difficult to attain on a mainly single polyphonic instrument, without extensive study.

The more arpeggios you learn and study, the more you will start to hear and recognise them in many different styles of music, particularly basslines. The Beatles and Queen are obvious examples.

Once you can get these fundamentals nailed, you can go to blues jams and confidently be able to lay down a groove. You can start simple and build in complexity once you have a few basic ideas to work with. Once you can construct basslines on the fly at the blues jams, keyboard players will love you because this frees up their left hand to play complex chords. You can get away with wrong notes as long as you can resolve the dischord fairly quickly! Also, there's an amazing amount of leverage in learning pentatonic scales in all positions, using open strings between fretted notes, pedal tones and passing notes and chord suspensions. Check out Chris Wolstenhulme from Muse on the track Hysteria for a great example of use of pedal tones with a melody sequenced around them.

But above all, don't get disheartened, there's a really valuable learning opportunity here if you ignore your fear and see this as a great opportunity to improve your musicianship.

If you chuck over your email address I will send some stuff which you might find useful. There's a balance though between going mad on theory elements and using your ears.

Cheers
AM

Edited April 27, 2009 by AM1

[Paul_C]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473325' date='Apr 27 2009, 12:56 PM']Might be the way forward methinks - a shove in the right direction.

Confidence is a big problem for me I know it is and I play much better on my own through my Tascam and seem to clam up when I'm out of my comfort zone - eg, improvising etc. It's never been a problem when I've been playing live with the bands I've been in because I've practised the set to death and can play the songs in my sleep.[/quote]

if you've got recordings of the songs you know in your sleep, they could be a great way to start - take each in turn and improvise over the top, as you know where the line usually goes you have a head start in knowing the changes and which notes are the "right" notes to land on if you get out of your depth

start with small steps (pentatonic scales are handy for this) and progress to larger passages as you feel comfortable with what works and what doesn't - don't be afraid to add "wrong" notes if they're only a passing note on the way to something you know is going to sound right

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473328' date='Apr 27 2009, 01:01 PM']I'm fine with blues - I did what you said and learned some stock lines and chop and change 'em about. I did a dep gig in front of about 200 people a couple of weeks ago at The Burnley Blues Festival - didn't know the set or what key the songs where in and I was fine / no nerves at all. Last night with jazzy / funky stuff.[/quote]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your original post. Silly me, should have noted funk / jazz refs. Not about blues at all...

Gets coat.

Edited April 27, 2009 by skankdelvar

[Beedster]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473325' date='Apr 27 2009, 12:56 PM']Might be the way forward methinks - a shove in the right direction.

Confidence is a big problem for me I know it is and I play much better on my own through my Tascam and seem to clam up when I'm out of my comfort zone - eg, improvising etc. It's never been a problem when I've been playing live with the bands I've been in because I've practised the set to death and can play the songs in my sleep.[/quote]

You've got to practive improvising then! Another trait in top sportsmen (yawn) is automaticity, the ability to reproduce at a consistently high level of skill, the same movement pattern time and again (you've alluded to it above). There's only one route to automaticity and that's producing the required movement over and over and over again, but it works (think about how you learned to drive and how you had to focus on every action, whereas now it's automated). The problem with automaticity is that it breaks down when the conscious brain get's involved; compare David James' performance when he doen't get a chance to think (one of the reactive best shot stoppers in the World), and when he does (he's famously calamitous if there's a cross in the air and he has time to think). DJ's highly skilled but he compromises his automated responses with poor decisions, often no doubt based on anxiety/lack of confidence. Those hours with the Tascam are the right way to go to gain automaticity Homer, but it will still break down if you don't have the confidence to allow the automatic processes to be just that, automatic. You've got to train your conscious brain to leave the unconscious alone, there's loads of techniques (imagery, self-talk, distraction, simulation training), but to be honest, the best way I know of doing it is by assuming an attitude of "who cares if I f**k up". All anxiety is the result of the fear of failure at one level or another, so if you reset your goals from "I want everyone here to think I'm a great bass player" (a goal over which you actually have little control) to a goal of "I'm going to play some basslines that are going to help all of the muicians collectively - including me - sound good", a process over which you do have control, life gets easier. Music's just like team sports, the need to impress as an individual - and the increased anxiety and lack of confidence that result - often disrupts the team performance as a whole.


Chris

[Beedster]

PS my apologies for the lecture above

[niceguyhomer]

[quote name='BassBunny' post='473335' date='Apr 27 2009, 01:10 PM']Hi Al,
Been going trough a similar problem.
Nick gave me a couple of Guitar/Drum tracks and the chord Structures to put my own Bass line to. Realised I was really stuck for ideas. Did the first one but was really stuck coming up with something different for the second.
Realised that by doing some Chord Work, the door has started to open.
Incidently, where abouts in Manchester is it? Might come down and see if thunderthumbs fancies it.[/quote]


The Thirsty Scholar on Oxford Road opposite The Palace Hotel.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='Beedster' post='473373' date='Apr 27 2009, 02:01 PM']PS my apologies for the lecture above [/quote]
No apolgy needed for me Chris, fascinating stuff. I think there are many parallels with sports and music performance. One of my favourites is the concept of a visualisation of a horseshoe for stress levels 0 being not bothered enough to perform well and 10 being too nervous to perform well with ag=bout the right balance to perform to optimum at 5 ie the top of the horseshoe, I think it gives something to latch onto to control nerves (not something that has really bothered me badly) but I still find it interesting and useful.
Confidence = good performance

[chris_b]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473150' date='Apr 27 2009, 09:39 AM']....this American guy when he comes up to me and asks if I mind if he could play bass.... plays the best bass grooves I’ve ever heard anywhere....Anyway, I get up this morning and start mulling it over whilst chewing on my bowl of porridge and I now realise why I was nervous. I’ve never done an open mic night before on bass and I’m not very good at improvisation.[/quote]
I would be pretty certain that 66man was just busking. 99.9% of people busk, they don't "improvise". It's a subtle difference. They have a tried and trusted library of licks, riffs, patterns, grooves, etc and they put them together in a way which fits the situation. The better they are the better they do it. That's busking and it sounds like you can do that. I would say that true improvisation is limited to certain genres of jazz, and do you really need to go there just yet!

[OldGit]

[quote name='silddx' post='473269' date='Apr 27 2009, 12:08 PM']Hit any note, if it's wrong the notes above and below will be right, so do a tasty little slide one fret up or down.[/quote]
and make sure you can hear what you are playing and what the "lead" person is playing.
Too often I've played jams whjere one, the other or even both are impossible ..
Badly placed bass amps, PA cabs and guitar cabs .. End up playing by guesswork watching the back of the guitar players hand and head ..

Work out how you need teh EQ before you go and have a fiddle before you start to play. It's allowed.

... and take your own 1966 P bass if possible

[OldGit]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='473380' date='Apr 27 2009, 02:12 PM']No apolgy needed for me Chris, fascinating stuff. I think there are many parallels with sports and music performance. One of my favourites is the concept of a visualisation of a horseshoe for stress levels 0 being not bothered enough to perform well and 10 being too nervous to perform well with ag=bout the right balance to perform to optimum at 5 ie the top of the horseshoe, I think it gives something to latch onto to control nerves (not something that has really bothered me badly) but I still find it interesting and useful.
Confidence = good performance[/quote]

Confidence - "fake it 'til you make it" -

once you have some of teh riffs, arpeggios, tunes and stuff in your mind, there are things you can do to increase your - apparent- confidence are things like using a different persona on stage.
I have a "performing head" for some of the playing I do where I think myself into it before I get up to play.
You can also use visualization (like Johnnie Wilkinson and his kick prep where he visualises the ball going over the bar) as well as physical techniques like pressing your hands together hard in front of your chest, rubbing and "tapping" on pressure points, standing up straight and looking straight ahead as you take to the stage, thinking you will succeed.

These all help you get to that point.

Believing you will be rubbish is a pretty sure way to be rubbish.
The opposite is true too.

[barry44]

i know exactly what you are going through, i feel the exact same.

my band recently split up, this was the band i started playing bass for.

For a couple of years we wrote and played basic punkish stuff with basslines that were no too adventurous but were fun to play.

myself the drummer and the guitarist have started a new band and we have been joined by an ex bandmate of my mates from another band that they play in.

so far we have had a couple of jams and this guy has got me feeling embarassed at my level of playing.

he is really good and is equally as good upon bass and guitar, he took a shot of my guitar as he had not played a 5 string before and i did not want to take it back, i wanted to watch him play it all night!!!

when i got it back i felt really staid and dull in my playing based upon all the stuff he was playing.

it was so disheartening that i thought about chucking it over the following couple of days but what i have decided to do instead is to start again at the beginning and try to relearn the way i play.

for example, we were jamming an idea that we had and as usual i was plugging away all 8ths and 16ths as normal because i was tryin gto concentrate on the changes etc. the next time we go in, i am going to listen to them play and try to add my bass to the mix rather than plugging away over and through it.

this will be me getting outside of my comfort zone and i am looking forward to doing it.

to keep me going i have recently started using tab to learn how my fave songs are played, i never really played along with music before now apart from a few covers at the start of the band. this is helping me learn little bits here and there, i.e. learning the hammer on pluck off at the start of three days by janes addiction.

i would also urge you to take lessons as i found lessons to be very helpful, unfortunately family sistuations got in the way of my lessons but i would like to go back to them one day.

the gist of this rambling email is to say that i feel for you and i hope that you keep at it, as when a song comes together that you have had a part in, there really is no better feeling, is there?

i apologise for my shocking spelling!!

Edited April 27, 2009 by barry44

[Raslee]

I found jammin to a Funkadelic album helped me improvise...not that i'm great at it but i can jam-most of the time i wasn't bothering in learning the Funkadelic line note for note but rather something that i can groove along with the track. As George Clinton says "Free you mind and your ass will follow"....having said that most of the open mic nights i've been to involves self indulgence funkin around E pentatonic ...give me the dub anyday

[51m0n]

[quote name='Beedster' post='473371' date='Apr 27 2009, 01:56 PM']You've got to train your conscious brain to leave the unconscious alone, there's loads of techniques (imagery, self-talk, distraction, simulation training), but to be honest, the best way I know of doing it is by assuming an attitude of "[b]who cares if I f**k up[/b]".[/quote]

That just about sums up my longer post above, its absolutely vital to get into your head, otherwise the stress you put upon yourself guarantees a hugely painful ordeal for yourself at ever gig.

Wish I could have put it that succinctly though

[OutToPlayJazz]

It's all down to experience. When you start improvising, blues is of course a good place to start. The chord sequences aren't hard & nine times out of ten there'll only be three of them! Start simply & then start to put in fills between the chords. Just go with what sounds right to your ear. You'll gradually pick up on patterns that work for you.

I started from the other end of the spectrum. I started going to blues jams in my late teens & was an already accomplished classical cello/double bass player, so I could read anything you put in front of me. But I couldn't improvise for toffee! Just by joining in, I went through the same process as you're going through now.

Think of it as a fun exploration of the potential in your playing

Rich.

[Thunderthumbs]

[quote name='BassBunny' post='473335' date='Apr 27 2009, 01:10 PM']Hi Al,
Been going trough a similar problem.
Nick gave me a couple of Guitar/Drum tracks and the chord Structures to put my own Bass line to. Realised I was really stuck for ideas. Did the first one but was really stuck coming up with something different for the second.
Realised that by doing some Chord Work, the door has started to open.
Incidently, where abouts in Manchester is it? Might come down and see if thunderthumbs fancies it.[/quote]
Hi Stuart,

The Thirsty Scholar is under the railway arches opposite the the old Refuge Building on Oxford Road.

If you remember A1 Music (or Sound Control as it became - don't know if it still is) and the entrance used to be on the corner, then they moved it round the corner to New Wakefield Street. If you came out of there, you'd literally fall into the Thirsty Scholar.

Sounds like a night out


As for Al's initial thoughts, I was in much the same predicament myself a couple of months ago when I went to a jam night with our drummer who's one hell of a jazz drummer. He can jam with anyone no problem, but when I was offered the opportunity I turned it down as I knew I was out of my depth.

But rather than get me down, it's spurred me on tremendously and I'm spending all the time I can now learning to read, etc. etc. etc.

Edited April 27, 2009 by Thunderthumbs

[peteb]

You are always going to come across someone who is better than you every now and again - that doesn't reflect on you or mean that you can't play

If the guy with the 66 Pbass is really good, it means that you have the opportunity to watch him at close quarters and learn from him.....

Edited April 27, 2009 by peteb

[peteb]

Of course, when I say "learn from him" I obviously mean "rip him off blind"!

[niceguyhomer]

Thanks Jon and everyone else, I'm not daunted by this other guy's playing TBH, my technique isn't light years away and I know I can learn to play the right notes in the right places as he did but the big difference is that he had a natural feel for the rythmn and the mythical groove he was laying down was so understated but so right for the music.

I guess I'll have to keep working on it and jamming along to stuff that'll improve my playing and build up my confidence.

[thepurpleblob]

You did one better than me... you went. I would rather put pointy sticks in my eyes than go to something like that stone cold. I can guarantee I would make a bigger fool of myself It's inconceivable to me to get up and play a song without having practised it 100 times first. So I'm jealous that you had the balls..... no idea if this helps!!

[niceguyhomer]

It does thanks - I do have balls but sadly no skill

[Johngh]

I recon some of it is if a player gets stuck in the covers band scene, you kind of get stuck in a rut with it. I don't think it helps a player at all. I did the original band thing years ago and nowdays just plod on playing covers, I can improvise to a degree, but thats it. I also have a good musical ear, and can pick stuff up very quickly.
Also, if you see some of the guys that pop up on you tube for example, its enough to make you want to quit. Now I just stick to what I'm good at, and also try to learn new grooves to improve.
Also, I was in a tribute band, and am just joining another one at the moment. I know that if I don't get the basslines exactly right, some officiardo of the original band will pull me up about it.

[Beedster]

[quote name='niceguyhomer' post='473774' date='Apr 27 2009, 10:07 PM']... and the mythical groove he was laying down was so understated but so right for the music.[/quote]

And that might be the key Homer. I get more positive comments about my bass playing now (mostly root notes TBH) than I ever did when I was trying to be Flea or Jaco. Like I said above, it's not about being a good technician of the bass (all those dudes on YouTube), but about playing notes that fit the music. Think of your notes as being words; we all hate those guys who use five words when one would suffice (politicians & scientists), or who use long and overly complex words when a short simple word would be just as effective (politicians and scientists. In fact, think any Bowie interview). However, it's not as easy as you'd think, simplicity is a skill. It takes a lot of skill to express an idea simply, whether it's a verbal idea or a sonic idea, and it's perhaps not technical skills you need to learn, but the skill of knowing what you want to say (musically speaking) and being able to say it in the simplest terms (as you say above "it was so understated but so right"). One of my all time favourite tracks is everyday people by Sly and the Family Stone. How many bass notes? ONE! How good a groove? AWESOME.

The points above about covers bands are also spot on, get yourself in an originals band mate, or at least, have some fun creating some original lines for the covers. It's music, there's no rule that says "If we're playing Need Your Love So Bad, you've gotta play the bassline McVie played". Or if your band do have that rule, challenge it

Chris

Edited April 28, 2009 by Beedster

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Beedster' post='473958' date='Apr 28 2009, 08:22 AM']we all hate those guys who use five words when one would suffice (politicians & scientists), or who use long and overly complex words when a short simple word would be just as effective (politicians and scientists.)[/quote]

Scientists tend to use lots of words because when you're getting down to such precise details you need all those words to make the point exactly clear. Politicians on the other hand tend to use lots of words to obscure the point and avoid giving a straight answer. Two very different situations!

I think you're probably underselling yourself Mr Homer. I'm guessing he had a slippier greasier groove than yourself which meshed better with that particular drummer but you might find your more straight-ahead groove approach fits better in other situations. My most recommended album for getting into truly greasy playing is Voodoo by D'Angelo. Possibly the greasiest bass playing ever. Well worth checking out.

Alex

[obbm]

Interesting thread Al. Once upon a time I felt the same but I got over it. I've shared Jam stages with players who are infinitely better than me and some who are a lot worse.

It used to worry me but not any more. It gets the adrenalin flowing and really makes you think on your feet which is no bad thing. It makes you watch, listen and follow.

At the end of the day I am what I am and I do what I do. What you see is what you get.

There are thousands and thousands of people out there who can't do what you or I do, and further thousands who think "I wish I could play bass" but never had the motivation to get on with it.

You can and you do, and very well by all accounts.
[/ramble]

[Beedster]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='473975' date='Apr 28 2009, 09:01 AM']Scientists tend to use lots of words because when you're getting down to such precise details you need all those words to make the point exactly clear. Politicians on the other hand tend to use lots of words to obscure the point and avoid giving a straight answer. Two very different situations!

I think you're probably underselling yourself Mr Homer. I'm guessing he had a slippier greasier groove than yourself which meshed better with that particular drummer but you might find your more straight-ahead groove approach fits better in other situations. My most recommended album for getting into truly greasy playing is Voodoo by D'Angelo. Possibly the greasiest bass playing ever. Well worth checking out.

Alex[/quote]

Believe it or not, I'm technically a scientist, and I can say with some confidence that science would be a hell of a lot more effective if we learned to express ideas in common language. Point taken that there are some technicalities that require specific terminology, but trust me, there's far fewer than most people think, much scientific language is simply the result of different schools of thought developing their own terms for the same thing, and consequently using language to confuse rather than clarify an area of research (think Psychology!). I think the words of my first Prof sum it up best "If you can't explain it to a child, you don't fully understand it". He was nominated for a Nobel prize.

The point above holds true for music of course, notes and phrases that are played out of a desire to demonstrate the technical ability to play them as opposed to the need to express something meaningful, but now I'm lecturing again!

C