Need help with an Aria Sinsonido bass electronics

[Aalin]

HI Getfletch

By chance do you have any record of you sinso ?

we would like to compare with ours.

Thank's by advance

Alain

[Richard R]

This thread has got me thinking I might have to build a Sensonido copy.
Does anyone know what the piezo pickups are?

[sandy_r]

14 minutes ago, Richard R said:

This thread has got me thinking I might have to build a Sensonido copy.
Does anyone know what the piezo pickups are?

 

i believe that there are 2 electret mic pickups, mounted against the bridge. i haven't seen any evidence of piezo sensors amongst any Aria documentation

 

One or two owners have implied that they've disassembled the pickup tube to investigate problems with the sound and then moved away from electrets to other pickup types:  i think @lemmywinks may have seen the internals?

 

If you wanted to copy the electret approach, there are probably any number of inserts which you could use - the key factor would be mounting them and achieving similar acoustic characteristics.  An interesting project!

 

 

 

 

[lemmywinks]

I didn't disassemble the pickup, just removed the tube thing. When I spoke to Soloette they just said they were active stereo condenser mics inside the bridge tube, just looked and I no longer have the email though. Annoyingly I seem to have misplaced the pickup tube, still have the rest of it.

 

@Richard R  I have a piezo strip in mine and a preamp from Analog Workshop. I modified a cheap acoustic bass bridge from AliExpress and fitted a cheap Fishman Sonicore copy (AliExpress again), looks like this now:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QH7fhzkttwpsXcU6LLxjXsxPTBU3BuqO/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QEIshaB9uS3yR_B5eLN_JISpOXn01K-V/view?usp=sharing

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QDio8TexXWOQ-bVlluD5FLkBGHSI2nrq/view?usp=sharing

[Richard R]

That would definitely be easier, as would the slimline pickup mentioned further up the thread. 🤔

 

Of course what I should do is practice playing the basses I own, not get sidetracked by this sort of interesting challenge!

[sandy_r]

1 hour ago, Richard R said:

Of course what I should do is practice playing the basses I own, not get sidetracked by this sort of interesting challenge!

 

lol - i had not long previously upgraded my fretless Yamaha RX to a fretless BBN4, but i was starting to get the itch to build a new bass for myself, and even sketched out what i wanted: a headless, 'stick' bass with one bout, to use as an upright...

 

...soon after that sketch, i walked past a shop and saw a used Sindonido in the window - woof - ditched the sketch - hardly ever used the BBN again!

 

[Aalin]

Hi Getfletch

I and Sandy are in contact every day and work together to resolve the problem of the Sinsonido.

When you have time

could you describe the fault symptom(s) you've got with the electronics, please?  

because you have the recent Sinso, and we have the older one with only one jack.

It would be interesting to hear if the symptoms are the same or does Aria has changed few things in their recent models

Also, if by chance you would have some records of your sinso, please feel free to include them in your answer, cause our sinso (I and Sandy) doesn't sound the same, and we would like to hear  if that comes from the record who are different, or possible different PCB.

Thank's for yours answer.

Alain

 

[GetFletch]

Hi Sandy and Aalin,

 

I've just had a bit of a disaster.  I was going to record and post some examples of the tone from my Sinsonido and I thought I had connected the correct 9V power supply.  It turns out not to be the case and now I am not getting any sound out at all.   I will pick-up a a 9V battery tomorrow and give that a go tomorrow evening.  I hope I have not caused any permanent damage.  

 

Sandy - if you could contact me directly and let me know where in the "Beautiful South" you are based, I will happily arrange to get my Sinsonido to you to use as a guinea-pig.  I will of course compensate you accordingly.   

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by GetFletch

[sandy_r]

48 minutes ago, GetFletch said:

Hi Sandy and Aalin,

 

I've just had a bit of a disaster.  I was going to record and post some examples of the tone from my Sinsonido and I thought I had connected the correct 9V power supply.  It turns out not to be the case and now I am not getting any sound out at all.   I will pick-up a a 9V battery tomorrow and give that a go tomorrow evening.  I hope I have not caused any permanent damage.  

 

Sandy - if you could contact me directly and let me know where in the "Beautiful South" you are based, I will happily arrange to get my Sinsonido to you to use as a guinea-pig.  I will of course compensate you accordingly.   

 

hi Fletch, thanks for getting back to us

 

I'm sorry to hear that our requests have resulted in some likely damage to something - whether Sinsonido board, of PSU !

 

The LM386 IC is max-rated at either 15V or 22V** and it appears that, on your circuit, the PSU input has a serial diode which might be providing reverse-polarity protection, and a further 0.7V drop from PSU voltage to board.  That new board version, however, now has 3 ICs, so at present i don't know anything about the 3rd one

(** for the LM386N-4 variant)

 

I will contact you by PM to discuss the best way ahead - but it may only be necessary to send the board (and i travel thro' london on a monthly basis, too)

 

The controls unplug, so the board + jack could be unscrewed, if you are happy/able to either unsolder/clip the 2 grey/white electret audio cables from the board. Anyway, i'll follow up in PM

 

As a quick initial overview, how would you describe the symptoms you were experiencing with the electronics/sound

 

thanks ...and apologies!

sandy

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by sandy_r

[GetFletch]

Hi Sandy,

 

I would describe the symptoms I was eperiencing with my Sinsonido as being low output and clipping of the sound.  The tone was very thin and adjusting the tone control didn't seem to make a great deal of difference to the sound.  

 

Hope this is of help.  

David

[sandy_r]

22 minutes ago, GetFletch said:

Hi Sandy,

 

I would describe the symptoms I was eperiencing with my Sinsonido as being low output and clipping of the sound.  The tone was very thin and adjusting the tone control didn't seem to make a great deal of difference to the sound.  

 

Hope this is of help.  

David

 

thanks David, yes, that's helpful to know - doesn't sound to me like the frequent problems found on the earlier board versions (which often involved uncontrollable, oscillation-type spontaneous noises, overloaded signal levels with no control of tone)

 

i'm wondering now, having exchanged extensive audio test result details with @Aalin, if there aren't 2 unrelated issues which have been causing problems: 'unusual' design/age-limited components of earlier boards - and also mechanical vibration of the otherwise very pleasant-sounding electret mics in the bridge (one channel of which was shorted by the connection of a regular jack-to-jack instrument cable!)

 

i've sent a message to Soloette/Creator of the Sinsonido pickup tech, to ask about any setup/adjustment info available - no response so far

 

we three can keep each other in the loop, wrt developments

 

thanks

sandy

 

[sandy_r]

On 06/11/2023 at 21:15, Richard R said:

Does anyone know what the piezo pickups are?

 

This is why none of my mechanical toys, when I was a kid, lasted more than a couple of months...

 

While waiting for the inventor of this acoustic pickup to reply to my enquiry, asking if there is any setup/adjustment info for the pickup, I scoured what remains of the interweb from the dark ages (200x, ish)

 

Of the Sinsonido pickup, very little, other than it consists of 2 electret condenser mic. inserts gathered in a cave and grooving with a pick (think i may have got my broadband fibres crossed a bit there...)

 

Reportedly, these 2 mics are installed inside the black plastic tube, which also contains some sort of baffle arrangement to 'tune' the acoustics

 

'Baffle' is obviously a very carefully chosen word in this context

 

Anyroad, as a public service to all Sinsonido owners who don't wish to rock the boat when it comes to the well-being of these little blighters, I grabbed the tube by the horns...

 

It appears that the 2 electret inserts are ...er, inserted at the extreme ends of the tube, being a press-fit. So the diameter is only slightly less than the tube, and its length is about 2x the distance marked by green arrows in this photo. the blue 'oval' marks the silver coloured body of the electret, half-extracted

 

 

This answers one question which I had: 'could the distorted audio being reported in some Sinsonidos be caused by the electret becoming loose from its fixture?'  It appears that the electrets are a tight fit between its enclosing end-cap and the tube wall, so there is little scope for it to 'rattle' 

 

(Also noted in the photo:

 - the strings are well-seated into the top surface of the tube (or 'saddle', as referred to by the originator);

 - a previous owner has obviously taken a dislike to the original pristine state of the string separator on the bridge)

 

*...continues to wait for any official response to enquiry, while looking around for some other gizmo to disect !...*

 

[GetFletch]

Hi Sandy - I have finally got around to some action.  I have spent a couple of hours, on this cold Saturday afternoon, refamiliarising myself with my Sinsonido.  It's been great fun. 

 

Firstly, I'm not certain if the problem with the input power is an issue with the DC box or if I have blown a diode.  I say that because I have noticed a crack in by power supply which makes me think I have crushed or dropped it during a recent house move.   I can't remember what you said the polarity should be but the I tried is 9V, 150mA with negative on the outside and positive at the center of the connection.

 

Secondly, I have recorded a sample sound clip as requested.  This recorded directly into my audio interface and into my DAW completely dry.  My shaky bass playing aside, the sound is much better than I remember it.  

 

Let me know what you think about the output and tone.  I will hold off disconnecting the PCB until I hear from you.

 

Many thanks,

David

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by GetFletch

[sandy_r]

15 hours ago, GetFletch said:

....I can't remember what you said the polarity should be

 

...I have recorded a sample sound clip as requested.  This recorded directly into my audio interface and into my DAW completely dry. 

... the sound is much better than I remember it.  

 

Let me know what you think about the output and tone

 

 

thanks for the update, David

 

The Aria Sinsonido 'manual' is a single page, which appears to be intended to cover both the guitar and bass - it shows the position of the DC socket but gives no info about its purpose, or its polarity (just voltage & current rating) - and no label on the bass, helpfully!

 

Unfortunately I don't have any experience of your Sinsonido version, which has a DC socket and with the controls on top (hence my request for photos of the electronics), so i can't help you confirm the polarity, unless i'm able to check a newer PCB

 

A quick listen on 'phones to your audio clip sounds encouraging - i'll compare it with the clips Alain and i have shared (as will Alain, i'm sure), and Alain may reply here, too

 

We know that on the earlier version PCB the signal from one of the two electrets gets lost by using a regular mono guitar lead, but Aria appear to have improved the newer version which you have (replacing age-sensitive capacitors), so it may be that they also improved the other 'features' such as the lost signal, and non-standard circuit design

 

If you think that your PCB is still fully functional wrt its DC power input, then there seems little point in going to the lengths of removing and swapping boards for testing

 

Still no reply from the US wrt my request for any setup/adjustment info for the electrets/pickup, but i believe that there can be a significant delay

 

I'll get back later, with any further comments re. the audio

many thanks

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by sandy_r

[sandy_r]

18 hours ago, GetFletch said:

...

Let me know what you think about the output and tone.  I will hold off disconnecting the PCB until I hear from you.

 

hi David, i've compared your Sinso audio with Alain's and mine - to me, it sounds very similar to the audio range which Alain gets on his Sinso (which in turn is similar to some other guitars of his - all recorded direct, no treble-cut). i can see on the waveform that your signal contains a good fundamental and some higher harmonics, so it appears that your Sinso is generating signals from both electrets ok

 

For some reason (possibly to do with pickup adjustment?) the waveform from my Sinso includes a higher proportion of 2nd harmonic and less higher ones, so its unfiltered sound is more 'bassy'.

 

i have noticed that the pickup on my Sinso pushes quite firmly into the strings (may be visible in my earlier photo), so it's possible that my pickup has more 'muting' action than yours and Alain's

 

i'll wait for Alain to get an opportunity to compare and comment on your audio clip, and then we can discuss any further action

 

Edited December 3, 2023 by sandy_r

[GetFletch]

Thanks Sandy - maybe I should replicate the audio clips the Aalain uploaded for a fair comparison. I will also render a .wav file for better spectrum analysis. 
 

I will still hold-off removing the PCB for now but I definitely need to get the power supply / diode issue resolved. 

[Aalin]

Hi both of you

GetFletch, I listened your  record, and don’t find many diffce with my Sinso.
Your Sinso seems to work well.
I don’t understand the polarity problem you talk about, in case of DC problem, there is protection (diode), have you try with a battery ?
I had a rehearsal yesterday and I had an horrible sound, plugged direct in the PA, distorted and using a high pass filter. May be the level of the mixer was too open ?
Today I record my Sinso,
3 sound test, all with Berlinger interface from jack to USB 😄
one direct, one direct power amp with no preamp, one on TC Bam 200, EQ at 12, all with Crazy 8 cab, epoxy one, rather medium sound.
I don’t know what to say, my today records gives a rather good sound, but live I have always a problem with too much bass, using a HPF full open, and sometimes a distorded sound , due may be to the output made also for an headphone .
The only thing we seems to be sure for the moment is the problem with the age of the condensers.
Don’t know if my answer will help a lot, to read you.
Alain

 

[sandy_r]

51 minutes ago, Aalin said:

Hi both of you

GetFletch, I listened your  record, and don’t find many diffce with my Sinso.
Your Sinso seems to work well.
I don’t understand the polarity problem you talk about, in case of DC problem, there is protection (diode), have you try with a battery ?
I had a rehearsal yesterday and I had an horrible sound, plugged direct in the PA, distorted and using a high pass filter. May be the level of the mixer was too open ?
Today I record my Sinso,
3 sound test, all with Berlinger interface from jack to USB 😄
one direct, one direct power amp with no preamp, one on TC Bam 200, EQ at 12, all with Crazy 8 cab, epoxy one, rather medium sound.
I don’t know what to say, my today records gives a rather good sound, but live I have always a problem with too much bass, using a HPF full open, and sometimes a distorded sound , due may be to the output made also for an headphone .
The only thing we seems to be sure for the moment is the problem with the age of the condensers.
Don’t know if my answer will help a lot, to read you.
Alain

 

 

Thanks Alain, these all sound very good to me - is it possible that the difference in bass sound between our 3 Sinsos is only due to the adjustment of the pickups under the strings? (agreed, we know that the aging caps in older version PCBs can cause other problems like oscillation, noise and non-working controls)

 

I have also contacted Aria (UK) now to ask about availability of PCBs, although i have read that other people have tried but received no reply

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by sandy_r

[GetFletch]

Hi Alain - I agree, your soundclips sound OK to me.   As for your question about the power supply, I recorded my soundclips using the 9V battery as the power source.  However, I now don't get any output when I collect my DC power supply.  When I first connected the power supply, after years of not playing my Sinsonido, I had a lot of interference noise for about 20 secs then nothing ever since.  That's why I suspect I connected the wrong power supply.  It is 9V, 150mA with the pisitive pole at the center of the connector.  Can you tell me the polarity of your power supply?  I will then order a replacement from Amazon or Ebay.

 

Sandy - are we arriving at the conclusion that it is not worthwhile swapping my PCB as there will be negligible benefit?   

[lemmywinks]

2 hours ago, sandy_r said:

 

Thanks Alain, these all sound very good to me - is it possible that the difference in bass sound between our 3 Sinsos is only due to the adjustment of the pickups under the strings? (agreed, we know that the aging caps in older version PCBs can cause other problems like oscillation, noise and non-working controls)

 

I have also contacted Aria (UK) now to ask about availability of PCBs, although i have read that other people have tried but received no reply

 

 

Aria UK had no parts when I contacted them years ago, from memory a few people got replacements early on but I suspect those will be just as likely to show issues.

 

@sandy_r I wonder if a company like PCBWay might be an option for your preamp? I'd be selling that on eBay for more bass funds if I were you!

[sandy_r]

1 hour ago, GetFletch said:

...

I recorded my soundclips using the 9V battery as the power source.  However, I now don't get any output when I collect my DC power supply.  When I first connected the power supply, after years of not playing my Sinsonido, I had a lot of interference noise for about 20 secs then nothing ever since.  That's why I suspect I connected the wrong power supply.  It is 9V, 150mA with the pisitive pole at the center of the connector.  Can you tell me the polarity of your power supply?  I will then order a replacement from Amazon or Ebay.

 

Sandy - are we arriving at the conclusion that it is not worthwhile swapping my PCB as there will be negligible benefit?   

 

Yours is the only one out of the three which has a socket for external DC, David, so unless another BC chatter who has the same version (or later) can tell us, only a test of the board can give us the answer (the Aria 'manual' is no help)

 

I'm happy to send you a test board which can show if there will be any improvement in sound by having a new circuit - such a test, however, will involve either cutting or unsoldering the 2 thin audio co-ax cables from the electrets to your existing board, and then subsequently having to re-solder those cables back in place if it turns out that the test board sounds the same as your existing board

 

Swapping a test board in, and sending me your existing board would enable me to confirm the polarity needed on your external DC socket - but is this a sufficient benefit for you to warrant the possible hassle in removing and re-installing your existing board.  Only you can say (i'm more than happy to help however i can)

 

[sandy_r]

2 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

 

Aria UK had no parts when I contacted them years ago, from memory a few people got replacements early on but I suspect those will be just as likely to show issues.

 

@sandy_r I wonder if a company like PCBWay might be an option for your preamp? I'd be selling that on eBay for more bass funds if I were you!

 

Thanks LW, yes, the passage of time has definitely been a factor in all the Sinsonido PCB woes - and some country's depts. seem to be more responsive than others 😞

 

Thanks also for the heads up about PCBWay, my FET circuit is out in the wild (hopefullly to be joined soon by its IC sibling, waiting in the wings) - anyone is free to capitalise on them in that way (Today i donated the bulk of my bass gear to a local school, so i'm definitely not looking to increase bass funds)

 

[Aalin]

HI Both of you

 

Is it possible that the difference in bass sound between our 3 Sinsos is only due to the adjustment of the pickups under the strings?
I cannot remember the name of the company that made those electret fo Aria.
but they could probably answer to the effect of the adjustment on the sound of the bass.
For me, I think the string must be sited firmly on the cylinder. Some folks report the problem of difference in sound between the strings, and probably due to the fact that the slot before the cylinder was too tight or too high to let the strings pass or sit correctly.
Don’t expect any answers from Aria, they don’t.

For the power supply
The only instruction I have is this paper. Are you sure of your power supply ?

[GetFletch]

I didn't realise that not all Sinsonido's have the the DC Power Supply.  I have the same 1-page Sinsonido Guitar manual that show 9V/200mA.  I bought my Sinsonido second hand on Reverb and it came with 9V/150mA adaptor that did initially work.  I will go to my local electrical store and try to test a 9V/200mA adaptor of both polarities.  

 

Sandy - fyi, there is a Sinsonido "body" currently available on Reverb as replacement parts: 
https://reverb.com/uk/item/61229229-aria-sinsonido-bass-body-plus-parts-2001-natural

[lemmywinks]

There's a few different versions of the Sinsonido with three body styles, two body wing arrangements (with two different diameters of foam, again can be on either style) and AFAIK two different preamps with the controls located either on the upper or lower side. Mine is an early one with the straight body, two thicker body wings, preamp controls on the bottom and the headphones used the 1/4" output jack.

 

You get different arrangements of those as well so not like there were 3 distinct models or anything, just a random assortment. For a bass that didn't have particularly wide appeal or was available for a long time it underwent a lot of changes!

Edited December 7, 2023 by lemmywinks