Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier - load box?

[LiturghianPope]

Hello,

 

Not sure if this should be in the amps section or 'other instruments' (since I'm referring to a guitar amp).

 

My bandmate recently acquired a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and I'm looking for some load box recommendations. We only wanna use the Slave Out / To Power Amp output. Our goal is to be able to travel to gigs without cabinets, and therefore use this output.

 

I've never used this strange kind of alien device before and I've just started researching, and some opinions and info would be very welcome.

 

1). I see various types of load boxes, with IRs, all kinds of settings and whatnot but I can't seem to find a simple load box, just to simulate the load, so that the amp doesn't BOOM. Are there no simple load boxes so I can just turn on the amp without the cabinet connected? Load boxes without output, for example?

2). If we would eventually use such a load box, would it sound better than the 'Slave Out' output from the amp? I guess that in theory they should, but has anyone actually compared an amp line out with a DI box?

3). These load boxes seem to offer quite a lot of convenience (not carrying a cabinet to gigs), yet I don't recall seeing a single band using them. Are they a not-so-great idea?

 

P.S. I'll play on the amp as well on various songs hence my interest on finding the best available solution.

 

Thanks!

[BassmanPaul]

Simplest would be to pull all the output tubes and just let the pre-amp function.  Thing is that you'll be carrying a full amplifier about just to use it as a simple DI

[BassmanPaul]

There is a Mesa pre-amp designed for recording purposes that would better suit what you are looking to do.

 

[thodrik]

A Dual Rec is a big amp to carry around if you are not wanting to use a cabinet. Something like a Helix would be more portable and useable for DI purposes at a gig. 
 

A load box with IRs would be the way to go. Mesa even had a CabClone product for the purpose of using the amp without a cabinet when recording or gigging. Insisting on trying to find another way to just go straight from the slave out/line out doesn’t seem like the best strategy when there is another strategy that would most likely achieve better results. 

[BigRedX]

In my guitarist days I ran a Marshall PowerBrake with a Hughes & Kettner Tube 50 combo, to allow me to run the power-amp section at full tilt whilst keeping the on-stage volumes at a suitable level. This offered numerous levels of attenuation (11 IIRC) from "off" to full output. The thing to realise about these devices is that good ones are relatively large and heavy, and can get very hot very quickly (they are essentially turning all that unwanted power into heat). The PowerBrake was equipped with a fan to try and cool it down, but at the the end of a 45 minute set, even though the fan had been running continuously, the casing would almost be too hot to touch.

 

In retrospect the difference between using the PowerBrake as my volume control and simply using the master volume on the amp would have been negligible in a live band mix, because there is no speaker break-up which I have come to find is more important to my guitar sound then any distortion added by the power amp valves working hard.

[LiturghianPope]

Thanks for the answers so far!

 

14 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

There is a Mesa pre-amp designed for recording purposes that would better suit what you are looking to do.

5 hours ago, thodrik said:

A Dual Rec is a big amp to carry around if you are not wanting to use a cabinet. Something like a Helix would be more portable and useable for DI purposes at a gig.

 

Since we already have high power amps for both bass and guitar it's unlikely we'll add processors to our collection any time soon so I don't think it is an option. Same situation with a pre-amp. It's expensive. We had to get the whole amp because we need it for rehearsals as well. We're just exploring options of avoiding having to carry the cab.

 

14 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

Simplest would be to pull all the output tubes and just let the pre-amp function.  Thing is that you'll be carrying a full amplifier about just to use it as a simple DI

 

I'm not sure I understand what do you mean by a simple DI, we would be using the pre-amp section, right? I mean, even when the whole amp is used as intended, when it comes to live shows, it's only used as monitor. So when using the full amplifier, there's not much to gain for FOH (right?), it's just an extra monitor on the stage. But the core of the tone comes from the preamp... doesn't it? I use the same method with a Markbass LMT 800. I use the line output for live situations and it sounds great, so far - and I can use it for rehearsals as well. That's what we're trying to achieve with the guitar as well.

 

One more thing - if there's a suitable cab on stage we can use, we'll use it. But we probably won't mic it. Or, if we do, then I certainly want to hear a comparison between the mic'd up cab and the output from the slave out. I expect slave out to be better sounding (I'll just avoid mentioning mic model and placement influence on the tone, and potential disasters when relying on the venue for this stuff :)) ). 

 

By all means, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm trying to figure stuff out.

 

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

The PowerBrake was equipped with a fan to try and cool it down, but at the the end of a 45 minute set, even though the fan had been running continuously, the casing would almost be too hot to touch.

 

That sounds nasty. And discouraging. When they say 'it turns power to heat' I was thinking something subtle. So basically for this 100W monster we can't just 'toy around' with some lower-end load boxes. Damn.

[BigRedX]

Are you working towards getting the PA to do all the heavy lifting as far as the band's sound is concerned or is it simply a way of having to take less gear to gigs?

 

What sort of band is it? Originals or covers? Do you have your own PA? what size venues are you playing?

[thodrik]

1 hour ago, LiturghianPope said:

Thanks for the answers so far!

 

 

Since we already have high power amps for both bass and guitar it's unlikely we'll add processors to our collection any time soon so I don't think it is an option. Same situation with a pre-amp. It's expensive. We had to get the whole amp because we need it for rehearsals as well. We're just exploring options of avoiding having to carry the cab.

 

 

Then definitely get a load box with IRs. The core tone of a traditional guitar rig (valve amp and cabinet) includes the power amp tubes being driven and the sound of the speakers. The preamp itself is only part of the signal chain. A load box with IRs will achieve the sound of a full rig running into a PA, running from the line out/slave will not.

 

A well mic'd guitar cab will generally sound better than than running directly from the line out to the PA, that is why sound engineers will generally look to mic up a guitar cab rather than run a line out. It isn't really the same as running a line out/DI of a bass amp where generally a cleaner sound is generally used than on a guitar. 

I would presume that your guitarist has spent a considerable amount of money on a Dual Rectifier, so I would recommend that he/she invests in a solution that will get the most out of the amp. Just running a signal from the line out directly to the PA really isn't the best solution. 
 

 

 

[LiturghianPope]

30 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Are you working towards getting the PA to do all the heavy lifting as far as the band's sound is concerned or is it simply a way of having to take less gear to gigs?

 

What sort of band is it? Originals or covers? Do you have your own PA? what size venues are you playing?

 

Traveling light is a concern indeed. Taking the amp head with us is the 'light' version, not an issue. Carrying the cab is what we're trying to avoid.

 

Yes, we're also working towards getting the PA do the heavy lifting. But again, even if we get the cab with us, we're still going in the PA (output or mic). I think we've had just one show where the guitar wasn't connected to the PA (just guitar cab). I found it somewhat strange since I haven't seen too many bands performing like that. Honestly, can't remember any particular one. I suppose that having just the amp/cab on stage without PA must feel strange for the audience, due to how heavily directional the sound is, and I can't imagine how it would sound good and balanced for people sitting  left/right of the stage.

 

We have our own songs. No, we don't have our own PA. We're a metal band playing pubs/indoor venues, with occasional festival/outdoor shows. 

 

We're playing small/medium venues. So we don't play in amphitheaters or anything large like that.

[LiturghianPope]

15 minutes ago, thodrik said:

 

Then definitely get a load box with IRs. The core tone of a traditional guitar rig (valve amp and cabinet) includes the power amp tubes being driven and the sound of the speakers. The preamp itself is only part of the signal chain. A load box with IRs will achieve the sound of a full rig running into a PA, running from the line out/slave will not.

 

A well mic'd guitar cab will generally sound better than than running directly from the line out to the PA, that is why sound engineers will generally look to mic up a guitar cab rather than run a line out. It isn't really the same as running a line out/DI of a bass amp where generally a cleaner sound is generally used than on a guitar. 

I would presume that your guitarist has spent a considerable amount of money on a Dual Rectifier, so I would recommend that he/she invests in a solution that will get the most out of the amp. Just running a signal from the line out directly to the PA really isn't the best solution. 

 

Good info, thank you!

 

I wonder if you've heard/witnessed a direct comparison. Because yes, in theory, I agree. But I wonder if the difference between these two options is significant. How significant? Do the pros beat the cons? Historically I get why this was practiced large-scale, does it still apply with modern amps to the same degree?

 

I THINK the advantages of line out would be tone consistency, fewer risks of failure (I guess we've all been to that show where the guitar(s) are undiscernible), less artefacts (other sounds the mic gets) and lightweight travel.

 

Of course, all these 'functional' aspects of fewer risks and travelling light are secondary to the main thing - having a good sound. So yeah, if we're talking about a difference in terms of thin, bad sounding guitar (line out) vs heavy, well-defined sound (mic'd up) then I already know who the winner is.

[thodrik]

16 minutes ago, LiturghianPope said:

 

Good info, thank you!

 

I wonder if you've heard/witnessed a direct comparison. Because yes, in theory, I agree. But I wonder if the difference between these two options is significant. How significant? Do the pros beat the cons? Historically I get why this was practiced large-scale, does it still apply with modern amps to the same degree?

 

I THINK the advantages of line out would be tone consistency, fewer risks of failure (I guess we've all been to that show where the guitar(s) are undiscernible), less artefacts (other sounds the mic gets) and lightweight travel.

 

Of course, all these 'functional' aspects of fewer risks and travelling light are secondary to the main thing - having a good sound. So yeah, if we're talking about a difference in terms of thin, bad sounding guitar (line out) vs heavy, well-defined sound (mic'd up) then I already know who the winner is.

If using the line out/slave was the best way of delivering the sound of an amplifier to the PA then lots of guitarists would use it both live and in the studio. They generally don't and even when they do, they use the slave/line  in conjunction with a cabinet simulation/IR. Most sound engineers in a venue (unless you have your own dedicated sound engineer) will not be able to add an cabinet simulation/IR at the desk from a line out, so you need to bear this in mind if you insist on using the slave/line out directly to the PA. 

I have heard a generic 'line out' of a guitar straight into an interface for recording. Frankly, it wasn't great and generally only became useable once used in conjunction with an cabinet sim/IR and judicious use of additional EQ.

 

Some modern amps come loaded with IRs which enable them to be used without a speaker load (like the Mesa Badlander). The Dual Rectifier is based on an initial amp design that is about thirty years old. It isn't a truly 'modern amp' in terms of design and was not really designed to be used without a cabinet in the way that more modern amps with inbuilt IRs are. The slave feature on the Dual Rectifier was designed so that the preamp signal could be fed into a different power amp and then to another speaker cabinet rather than as a DI to be fed directly to the PA without any kind of speaker simulation.  If the slave/line out direct to the PA was the best option then Mesa wouldn't have released the Cabclone. Yes, you could theoretically run the slave out straight to the board, but it really isn't the best option available. 
 

[LiturghianPope]

2 minutes ago, thodrik said:

If using the line out/slave was the best way of delivering the sound of an amplifier to the PA then lots of guitarists would use it both live and in the studio. They generally don't and even when they do, they use the slave/line  in conjunction with a cabinet simulation/IR. Most sound engineers in a venue (unless you have your own dedicated sound engineer) will not be able to add an cabinet simulation/IR at the desk from a line out, so you need to bear this in mind if you insist on using the slave/line out directly to the PA. 

I have heard a generic 'line out' of a guitar straight into an interface for recording. Frankly, it wasn't great and generally only became useable once used in conjunction with an cabinet sim/IR and judicious use of additional EQ.

 

Some modern amps come loaded with IRs which enable them to be used without a speaker load (like the Mesa Badlander). The Dual Rectifier is based on an initial amp design that is about thirty years old. It isn't a truly 'modern amp' in terms of design and was not really designed to be used without a cabinet in the way that more modern amps with inbuilt IRs are. The slave feature on the Dual Rectifier was designed so that the preamp signal could be fed into a different power amp and then to another speaker cabinet rather than as a DI to be fed directly to the PA without any kind of speaker simulation.  If the slave/line out direct to the PA was the best option then Mesa wouldn't have released the Cabclone. Yes, you could theoretically run the slave out straight to the board, but it really isn't the best option available. 
 

 

Awesome. Things getting clearer now. Thank you!

[BassmanPaul]

2 hours ago, thodrik said:

 

Then definitely get a load box with IRs.

 

Forgive my denseness it's early yet! IRs ?

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by BassmanPaul

[thodrik]

7 minutes ago, BassmanPaul said:

Forgive my denseness it's early yet! IRs ?

 

impulse response, the new 21st century fancy way of saying 'speaker/cabinet simulator'. 

Edit: there is actually quite a lot of science and tech in IRs compared to the 'cut a few high frequencies' old style cab sims. For the record, I'm still rocking the old Tech 21 Samsamp which does the latter.

Edited March 7, 2023 by thodrik

[BassmanPaul]

Thank you.

[BassmanPaul]

To add: I was worried it meant Inland Revenue Service!

[Phil Starr]

On 07/03/2023 at 13:43, LiturghianPope said:

But the core of the tone comes from the preamp... doesn't it?

That's where you are going wrong, almost all the valvey goodness is coming from the output stages, the power amp, the combination of overloading the output valves and the transformer.  That plus a dedicated guitar speaker. Yes you use the tone stack to tweak the tone but the basic timbre of a valve amp is shaped by the nature of hard driven output stages and the speakers chosen. It's a lovely amp but you are bypassing the loveliness (and carrying it unnecessarily) Guitar amps are miked up because you want the sound of the power amp and the speaker combined, which guitarists obsess about getting exactly right for 'their' tone'

 

If you want to go speakerless then you also need to go ampless. You need to have something that simulates valve overdrive (basically increasing the second harmonic distortion and a bit of compression) and something that will simulate the response of the speakers, a modeller in other words. Something like the SansAmp already mentioned will do this or if funds are an issue the Behringer V-amp or a Zoom B1-Four. FWIW I go ampless nowadays using a SansAmp for bass and it just sprinkles pixie dust on my sound.

 

Using a dummy load is rarely a good idea. For a guitarist it allows them to get their stage sound in the studio and 50 years ago it was the only way of doing that. A resistor capable of handling that sort of power is a really specialist thing and cost more than the simulators I've suggested.

 

The dual rectifier coupled with a guitar speaker produces a glorious sound Some rate it the best guitar amp ever so it's a thing to treasure but not as a pre-amp. Given the price of replacing the valves and the fragility when moving them just switching them on and off at every gig is going to cost you more than a Zoom .

 

 

[0175westwood29]

On 06/03/2023 at 22:14, LiturghianPope said:

Hello,

 

Not sure if this should be in the amps section or 'other instruments' (since I'm referring to a guitar amp).

 

My bandmate recently acquired a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and I'm looking for some load box recommendations. We only wanna use the Slave Out / To Power Amp output. Our goal is to be able to travel to gigs without cabinets, and therefore use this output.

 

I've never used this strange kind of alien device before and I've just started researching, and some opinions and info would be very welcome.

 

1). I see various types of load boxes, with IRs, all kinds of settings and whatnot but I can't seem to find a simple load box, just to simulate the load, so that the amp doesn't BOOM. Are there no simple load boxes so I can just turn on the amp without the cabinet connected? Load boxes without output, for example?

2). If we would eventually use such a load box, would it sound better than the 'Slave Out' output from the amp? I guess that in theory they should, but has anyone actually compared an amp line out with a DI box?

3). These load boxes seem to offer quite a lot of convenience (not carrying a cabinet to gigs), yet I don't recall seeing a single band using them. Are they a not-so-great idea?

 

P.S. I'll play on the amp as well on various songs hence my interest on finding the best available solution.

 

Thanks!

Honestly man get a two notes captor, I used an 8ohm one live with a orange rockerverb 100 sounds great in the pa and meant I could run a true biamp rig with a very small setup, also sound guys love it