Skybone Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 (edited) I'm sure that here in BassChat-land, there are quite a few people with a fair bit of knowledge on this one. The band I'm in have recently finally finished getting our album sorted (inc. mastering & ISRC codes), we have two singles up on Spotify & Apple, and the album will be released on these platforms at the end of the month so I'm told. We want to get some CD's made up to sell at gigs and stuff, as well as looking at other merchandise. Does any of the BC Collective have any recommendations for UK based CD & Sleeve Duplication companies that are good and reasonable for smaller runs? I'm assuming that we're looking at a small run of numbers, maybe 100-200, colour sleeve maybe booklet etc. Any recommendations? Cheers. 👍 Edited March 12, 2023 by Skybone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 After a lot of research, I ended up using http://www.torchmusic.co.uk/ We were pretty happy with the outcome. For context, we went for the cheapest options available throughout, because we were well aware that very few people have any interest in buying CDs these days. We sold JUST enough to cover production costs. You really REALLY want to enclose a download code with each CD. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrypF Posted March 12, 2023 Share Posted March 12, 2023 Bandcds.co.uk are reasonably priced and have a wide range of formats. Have used them quite a few times, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRev Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 We use Cram Duplication. Very happy with them. https://www.cramduplication.co.uk/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 13 hours ago, Happy Jack said: You really REALLY want to enclose a download code with each CD. we obtained some download codes via Bandcamp, you get about 100 free(might be more can't remember), NOBODY asked for one with the CD's we sold. But you are right CD sales have fallen through the floor, vinyl is cost prohibitive for smaller runs, and if our experience is anything to go by, popularity is exaggerated, don't get me started on streaming, we get about 500 streams a month for which get about £1.50. All in all it's very difficult to make a case for recording and releasing music, unless you're happy to make a loss on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miles'tone Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 Just a thought... I wonder if simply selling what would be the CD cover (nicely done) on card with a download code on it might work better these days. It would cut your costs and enable you to sell them cheaper therefore probably selling more. Plus anyone who buys one will always have your music on them (phone) to play for their friends if they really like you, spreading the word. I don't even own a CD player anymore and don't know anyone else who does either... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 4 minutes ago, miles'tone said: Just a thought... I wonder if simply selling what would be the CD cover (nicely done) on card with a download code on it might work better these days. I imagine you'd get a few people prepared to hand over a fiver for a pretty piece of cardboard, but only if they were drunk enough. You'd need to be offering these for 99p each and there comes a point where the game's not worth the candle. Thing is, if you have a band with a decent following and a good social media presence, then downloads (for 99p each) are by far the simplest, most cost-effective way of dealing with this. With my rock'n'roll band, the talent (Damo) has written four songs in four years, all of them excellent of their type, but he ain't exactly the new Lennon & McCartney. He's also a technphobe so dealing with every aspect of the download biz would be left to me and @Silvia Bluejay as was the recording and production of the 4-song CD during Lockdown. Given that all royalties would be going - rightly - to Damo, and that we'd be dealing in pennies, life's too short. In a successful 4-piece originals band with a shedload of great songs and a real desire to 'get our music out there', I imagine things look different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 23 minutes ago, Happy Jack said: In a successful 4-piece originals band with a shedload of great songs and a real desire to 'get our music out there', I imagine things look different. I'm reasonably friendly with an originals band, who make a thing out of collectable vinyl, singles in different colours, that sort of thing, they travel all over the place doing gigs and admit they don't really recover costs, they view it as a promo tool Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 (edited) Ah well, if it comes out of the marketing budget ... Edited March 13, 2023 by Happy Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 I suppose it is dependant upon your genre, but all the bands I've been in, physical media sales (CDs vinyl and even cassettes) have always far outstripped downloads. And does anyone even buy downloads these days when they can stream the music for free on Spotify? As a punter, if I've been sufficiently impressed by the band I will want to buy a CD (or other media of your choice) at the end of the gig. Nothing for sale at the gig will nearly always mean no income for the band. What sounded good at the gig accompanied by a visually interesting performance by the band and a couple of beers for the audience, doesn't always translate when you are contemplating buying something from your phone or computer the following day. There have certainly been a number of occasions recently where a band would have made a sale to me if there had been CDs available at the gig, but having listened to the recorded version the following day I wasn't sufficiently motivated to buy a download. And as I always say, when anyone with a recording and $50 can get their music on all the streaming and download sites, having physical product for sale shows that you are a bit more serious about the band and the music. So, on to the practicalities... If you are looking at CDs the key words are "Replication" and "Glass-Mastering". This means your CD has been professionally manufactured. "Duplication" will mean CDRs which may look cost effective for short runs but has the disadvantage of a considerably reduced shelf-life. I wouldn't expect and CDR to still be playable after 10 years and there are some parts of the world where their lifespan is measured in months rather than years due to climactic conditions. Last time I looked, for the price of 250 CDRs you could get 500 properly manufactured CDs. As a punter I'd only buy a CDR "pressing" if it also came with a download code for an uncompressed audio version as well. Also unless it has changed in the last few years the traditional plastic CD case with a four-page booklet and tray insert works out cheaper than almost every other type of packaging, except maybe a simple non-gatefold card cover. And I wouldn't worry about the company being UK based. Even if they have a UK business address there is a good chance that some part of the production will happening another country. Anywhere that is 100% UK based will probably be more expensive. The last release I was fully involved with - The Terrortones' LP - the label printing was done somewhere in the far east and the vinyl was pressed in France. Only the packaging was done in the UK and that was simply because we wanted something unorthodox, I work in print design with have plenty of helpful contacts, and our chosen route was able to be disguised as a booklet and therefore I didn't have to pay VAT on its printing. In the past I have used the following for long and short run media, although it's now over 7 years since I had anything produced, so none of my recommendations are based on recent performance: Disc Wizards These used to be by far the cheapest for CDs, but all their packaging used non-standard templates, which meant that if you switched to them last minute you might find yourself having to redo all your artwork to fit. Media Hut Mobineko Last time I looked they were the only broker offering proper CD Replication on short runs that wasn't unfeasibly expensive. Hope that helps. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisba Posted March 13, 2023 Share Posted March 13, 2023 I had 100 copies made of our last album, on CD-R's, about 6 years ago, and I can assure you they are still playable, I've just checked one. I really wish I could remember the name of the duplication company I used ( it was something obvious like CD Duplication Ltd, and they were UK based ), as they were super efficient, helpful and cheap. Not a music-oriented company, probably more into software distribution, so probably no longer in business 😞 . However, they understood how to make playable, music CD's With cardboard sleeve, printed back and front, and the CD printed on too, it came to about £150. I'm sure the market's changed a lot since then though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybone Posted March 13, 2023 Author Share Posted March 13, 2023 3 hours ago, BigRedX said: I suppose it is dependant upon your genre, but all the bands I've been in, physical media sales (CDs vinyl and even cassettes) have always far outstripped downloads. And does anyone even buy downloads these days when they can stream the music for free on Spotify? As a punter, if I've been sufficiently impressed by the band I will want to buy a CD (or other media of your choice) at the end of the gig. Nothing for sale at the gig will nearly always mean no income for the band. What sounded good at the gig accompanied by a visually interesting performance by the band and a couple of beers for the audience, doesn't always translate when you are contemplating buying something from your phone or computer the following day. There have certainly been a number of occasions recently where a band would have made a sale to me if there had been CDs available at the gig, but having listened to the recorded version the following day I wasn't sufficiently motivated to buy a download. And it's exactly that we're looking at. We've had quite a few people come up after a gig and ask about merchandise, so it's about time we actually got some sorted. I really don't think a small, regional, rock originals band would sell many copies, so we're really just looking at small runs initially. If they sell well, we can get some more done as and when. Also definitely looking at getting t-shirts printed up as well, though we have different ideas as to what the design should be. Thanks all for the suggestions. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 15 hours ago, Skybone said: And it's exactly that we're looking at. We've had quite a few people come up after a gig and ask about merchandise, so it's about time we actually got some sorted. I really don't think a small, regional, rock originals band would sell many copies, so we're really just looking at small runs initially. If they sell well, we can get some more done as and when. Also definitely looking at getting t-shirts printed up as well, though we have different ideas as to what the design should be. Thanks all for the suggestions. 👍 If you are gigging regularly, and as an originals band you should be prepared to go anywhere that will pay your travelling expenses, you'll be surprised how many copies of your CD or vinyl you can sell - obviously dependant upon your band being able to deliver both sonically and visually at the gigs. So don't think too small, unless you are going for the limited edition market, because in the long term it will work out a lot more expensive. Get your CD up on Bandcamp and you can potentially sell it all over the world. However it is my experience that the band needs to be gigging in order to continue to sell CDs etc. The only Terrortones product that I still have in significant quantities is the album and that's because the band stopped gigging shortly after it was released. And you should definitely do T-Shirts because they are far more profitable for the band than a CD. You can get a 50 printed a single colour on one side (and if your design is good you can make a single colour print look fantastic) for just over £5.00 per T-shirt, which you can then sell for £10-£15 each. And when it comes to picking sizes go more for the larger ones. IME even if your audience is mostly composed of skinny hipsters, most of the people who actually buy your T-Shirts all want L or bigger. In a way it's a depressing situation that punters are prepared to spend at least £10 on a T-shirt that may have cost you less the £5 to produce, whereas they won't buy your CD that probably cost the band £1k+ to record and press, even though you are only selling them for £5... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 17 hours ago, chrisba said: I had 100 copies made of our last album, on CD-R's, about 6 years ago, and I can assure you they are still playable, I've just checked one. The longevity of CDRs is dependant upon a lot of factors such as the quality of the media, the machines used to do the duplication and how they are handled and stored before and after being sold. I have some that are over 10 years old that still play fine, but others stopped working reliably within a couple of years of purchase. I recently transferred all my CDs onto the computer and all the discs I had problems with were CDRs. These days I wouldn't trust a CDR without also having a backup on some other medium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steantval Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 On 13/03/2023 at 08:57, miles'tone said: Just a thought... I wonder if simply selling what would be the CD cover (nicely done) on card with a download code on it might work better these days. It would cut your costs and enable you to sell them cheaper therefore probably selling more. Plus anyone who buys one will always have your music on them (phone) to play for their friends if they really like you, spreading the word. I don't even own a CD player anymore and don't know anyone else who does either... There are still millions of vehicles on the roads that have a CD player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skybone Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 5 hours ago, BigRedX said: In a way it's a depressing situation that punters are prepared to spend at least £10 on a T-shirt that may have cost you less the £5 to produce, whereas they won't buy your CD that probably cost the band £1k+ to record and press, even though you are only selling them for £5... Aint that the truth. Found that in my previous band, the only thing that actually made any money were the T-shirts. Music seems to be more of a commodity these days... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 6 hours ago, BigRedX said: In a way it's a depressing situation that punters are prepared to spend at least £10 on a T-shirt that may have cost you less the £5 to produce, whereas they won't buy your CD that probably cost the band £1k+ to record and press, even though you are only selling them for £5... 15 minutes ago, Skybone said: Aint that the truth. Found that in my previous band, the only thing that actually made any money were the T-shirts. Music seems to be more of a commodity these days... yes, we're finding that as well, they keep coming back for T shirts, they got a finite life, not so CD's or other forms of music carriers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisba Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 On 13/03/2023 at 16:59, chrisba said: I had 100 copies made of our last album, on CD-R's, about 6 years ago, and I can assure you they are still playable, I've just checked one. I really wish I could remember the name of the duplication company I used ( it was something obvious like CD Duplication Ltd, and they were UK based ), as they were super efficient, helpful and cheap. Not a music-oriented company, probably more into software distribution, so probably no longer in business 😞 . However, they understood how to make playable, music CD's With cardboard sleeve, printed back and front, and the CD printed on too, it came to about £150. I'm sure the market's changed a lot since then though. I'm pretty sure it was these people... https://www.duplicationcentre.co.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidder652003 Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 As BigRed says, T shirts are where the money is at. We sold a hundred odd cds at gigs and online, but T shirts seem to sell better and at £15 a pop (think they cost £4 each (?). Oh and a card reader has really made a difference, hardly anyone has £15 spare in cash at the end of the night, but everyone has a phone or a card. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lozz196 Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 The amount of times I tried to explain this in my last band, a card reader will generate more sales, not just change how people pay from one way to another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-bbb Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 not connected to me - a friend has used them several times and thoroughly recommends https://www.cyclonemusic.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meterman Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 A guy I did some session work for used https://www.cramduplication.co.uk/ to do his CDs, I think he’s done 3 or 4 different albums and EPs with them now. I’ve always made a profit from CDs, never made anything much from streaming though, and that’s even with being in a signed band that had records out, plus tunes on TV and soundtracks and radio etc. Just depends on the type of genre probably? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WalMan Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 We used Alpha-Duplication.com and were happy with the results. Reasonable turnaround and price seemed on average with others that we looked at. Now we just need to sell a few more to recoup the cost I fronted for 100 copies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 1 hour ago, meterman said: I’ve always made a profit from CDs, never made anything much from streaming though, and that’s even with being in a signed band that had records out, plus tunes on TV and soundtracks and radio etc. Just depends on the type of genre probably? My experience from both working the merch table for the band and as a punter is that it has nothing to do with the genre but more with the atmosphere at a gig plus some lubrication with alcohol that will make people far more willing buy a CD etc. immediately after you have played then they are to buy a download the following day. Streaming is a whole different matter. It's all to do with how popular your are as an artist versus how big a percentage your record label takes of the streaming royalties. Unfortunately in order for most artists to get enough streams to be potentially earning decent royalties requires the kind of promotion and publicity that only a proper record label can generate and they will take the lion's share of those royalties to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 10 minutes ago, BigRedX said: My experience from both working the merch table for the band and as a punter is that it has nothing to do with the genre but more with the atmosphere at a gig plus some lubrication with alcohol that will make people far more willing buy a CD etc. immediately after you have played then they are to buy a download the following day. that certainly used to be the case, but less and less people even have a CD player these days, in my (very limited) experience, there has been a marked decline in people buying CD's after a gig in the last couple of years. The band were discussing online this morning about writing some new original material, I pointed out (me being the misery guts of the band) that were unlikely to recoup the cost of recording and production because of poor CD sales, everybody went very quiet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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