Letts Bass

[Beedster]

13 minutes ago, EddieG said:

Perhaps there are "worse things that can happen", but when you're someone who has two disabled children, and really can't afford to hand £1.5k to a thief, I can't really think of much worse than a man who knows all that and would accept the money, and then refuse to provide the instrument. 
You may see things differently though.👍🏻

Yes I see things very differently sorry

[binky_bass]

@EddieG - Jon will never change, he's a conman through and through. I'm fairly convinced that he's deluded himself into actually believing he is somehow morally right in his actions. 

 

My personal advice would be to take any action you can to get the value of your investment back - there has been a good suggestion of how a few posts above. 

 

He will never provide you with a bass, it does seem like you'll be waiting until one of you dies for you to realise this. He's only ever responded to extreme circumstances where the repayment of someones funds or the actual providing of a bass is much less the inconvenience than continuing to shine that person on. You've let him shine you on for literally decades, he's long by now convinced he doesn't really need to do anything to repay you. I feel for you, but you have let this go on WAY to long, and have essentially enabled his actions in doing so. Apologies if that's not overly sympathetic, but I suspect the majority of readers would, at least in part, agree. 

Edited June 24 by binky_bass

[ambient]

The man is a crook, pure and simple. He’d actually be well at home in the current government.

[OliverBlackman]

43 minutes ago, EddieG said:

Perhaps there are "worse things that can happen", but when you're someone who has two disabled children, and really can't afford to hand £1.5k to a thief, I can't really think of much worse than a man who knows all that and would accept the money, and then refuse to provide the instrument. 
You may see things differently though.👍🏻

It sounds like your time and energy would be better spent elsewhere than involving yourself with this “luthier”. I’ve made much more expensive mistakes than this and sometimes the best thing for yourself is to move on and take the hit.

Edited June 24 by OliverBlackman

[ahpook]

My fingers are crossed.

[BreadBin]

The man is clearly a fantasist and a chancer. He has 4 of his own builds on Reverb however not one of them is actually finished. They say allow 14 days (28 for the miles from finished 7 string) for shipping, which is a funny word for hastily finish before I spaff your money on something else.

He has almost certainly convinced himself by now that it's actually your fault you don't have a bass and he is doing you a favour by cobbling this one together.

 

@Burns-bass idea is a good one, you have it in writing from him that he owes you money 😉

Conveniently the 2 most resellable items on his Reverb page weren't made by him, and total almost exactly £1500 😀

Edited June 24 by BreadBin

[Burns-bass]

12 hours ago, binky_bass said:

@EddieG - Jon will never change, he's a conman through and through. I'm fairly convinced that he's deluded himself into actually believing he is somehow morally right in his actions. 

 

My personal advice would be to take any action you can to get the value of your investment back - there has been a good suggestion of how a few posts above. 

 

He will never provide you with a bass, it does seem like you'll be waiting until one of you dies for you to realise this. He's only ever responded to extreme circumstances where the repayment of someones funds or the actual providing of a bass is much less the inconvenience than continuing to shine that person on. You've let him shine you on for literally decades, he's long by now convinced he doesn't really need to do anything to repay you. I feel for you, but you have let this go on WAY to long, and have essentially enabled his actions in doing so. Apologies if that's not overly sympathetic, but I suspect the majority of readers would, at least in part, agree. 

I have to agree with this. In recent years my business has lost substantially more than the sums here by two people who commissioned work, used it and never paid.

 

Their behaviour was worryingly similar to that of a John here and I think that he is (again) leading you on a merry dance and at some point will come back to you and explain how his “mental health problems have stopped him from delivering the bass and that he’ll make you a priority etc.”

 

It seems to be his way of working.

[woodyratm]

Sad to see he’s messed you around twice. Hopefully you get it sorted and put it to bed and then no one deals with him in future. 

[EddieG]

So, further to my post of the other day, there was an

email from Jon Letts on Monday. 
 

 

Seems peculiar to me that he wouldn't want to finish it quickly and have things done and dusted, and I emailed as much in reply. 
 

Btw chaps, a large motivation for making this public is to draw attention to Jon Letts in particular as a luthier and supposed "business owner", but also to encourage this kind of behaviour to be called out publicly and hopefully eradicated.
So if anybody has any other corners of the internet they fancy sharing this to, you'd be doing me a big favour.😉

Stay tuned for more updates!

[diskwave]

Theres a ton of stories like this over on TB. I dunno, for the life of me I simply do not understand why anyone bothers with these startup independent builders when there are loads of established boutique companies flogging stuff everywhere. What is it that you expect to gain? 

[ambient]

41 minutes ago, diskwave said:

Theres a ton of stories like this over on TB. I dunno, for the life of me I simply do not understand why anyone bothers with these startup independent builders when there are loads of established boutique companies flogging stuff everywhere. What is it that you expect to gain? 

 

If I remember rightly he was offering to build instruments for a ridiculously cheap price, and people like a bargain.

 

If you actually stopped to think about what he was offering you'd realise he couldn't possibly purchase the materials and build the instrument for the price he was quoting. 

[Burns-bass]

57 minutes ago, diskwave said:

Theres a ton of stories like this over on TB. I dunno, for the life of me I simply do not understand why anyone bothers with these startup independent builders when there are loads of established boutique companies flogging stuff everywhere. What is it that you expect to gain? 

Every new business needs customers otherwise we’d end up with just Fender and Gibson. 
 

In the end, you have to put your trust in people sometimes, and they can let you down (as has happened here). I wouldn’t take the attitude and approach of Jon as indicative of every small scale luthier.

[Beedster]

3 hours ago, EddieG said:

So, further to my post of the other day, there was an

email from Jon Letts on Monday. 
 

 

Seems peculiar to me that he wouldn't want to finish it quickly and have things done and dusted, and I emailed as much in reply. 
 

Btw chaps, a large motivation for making this public is to draw attention to Jon Letts in particular as a luthier and supposed "business owner", but also to encourage this kind of behaviour to be called out publicly and hopefully eradicated.
So if anybody has any other corners of the internet they fancy sharing this to, you'd be doing me a big favour.😉

Stay tuned for more updates!

Re first paragraph, you don’t get it do you?

Re second paragraph, this was all done 10 years ago. Whatever your motivation for continuing with the farce and posting about doing so, it’s not a public service. You should take him to court, seek full repayment, and whatever the outcome, move on.

[EddieG]

2 hours ago, Beedster said:

Re first paragraph, you don’t get it do you?

Re second paragraph, this was all done 10 years ago. Whatever your motivation for continuing with the farce and posting about doing so, it’s not a public service. You should take him to court, seek full repayment, and whatever the outcome, move on.

To be fair, I did say when Letts offered a resolution that I would post the developments; I feel that it benefits the bass community to know whether a luthier (who has previously taken others for money and been guilty of extremely dubious business practices, but who is still currently trading to unsuspecting buyers) has actually turned a corner or is still conducting himself in the exact same manner. 
 

If that doesn't have any value to you, that's fair enough, I get it. You could just scroll on though. Thanks for your input all the same. 

[tauzero]

4 hours ago, diskwave said:

Theres a ton of stories like this over on TB. I dunno, for the life of me I simply do not understand why anyone bothers with these startup independent builders when there are loads of established boutique companies flogging stuff everywhere. What is it that you expect to gain? 

 

How do you think the established boutique companies start?

[binky_bass]

6 hours ago, EddieG said:

To be fair, I did say when Letts offered a resolution that I would post the developments; I feel that it benefits the bass community to know whether a luthier (who has previously taken others for money and been guilty of extremely dubious business practices, but who is still currently trading to unsuspecting buyers) has actually turned a corner or is still conducting himself in the exact same manner. 
 

If that doesn't have any value to you, that's fair enough, I get it. You could just scroll on though. Thanks for your input all the same. 

From the recent messages you've received from him, it is undoubtedly obvious that no corner has been turned. He will shine you on until the day one of you die or the day you finally realise you will get nothing from him until you take him to court or act upon the suggestion of a fellow basschatter that was posted a few days ago.

[Burns-bass]

8 hours ago, EddieG said:

To be fair, I did say when Letts offered a resolution that I would post the developments; I feel that it benefits the bass community to know whether a luthier (who has previously taken others for money and been guilty of extremely dubious business practices, but who is still currently trading to unsuspecting buyers) has actually turned a corner or is still conducting himself in the exact same manner. 
 

If that doesn't have any value to you, that's fair enough, I get it. You could just scroll on though. Thanks for your input all the same. 

Chris means well. Every time you engage with Jon and post it, you perpetuate this. In the end, we all know nothing will happen and you’ll become more and more exasperated with him.

 

Chris’s way is the fastest way to heal.

 

I appreciate you’ve lost money and that’s awful but you need to weigh this against the emotional impact of continuing with this. You’re not helping the bass community by harming yourself.

 

 

 

 

[neepheid]

It's a dead end. He's never going to deliver. This is the community you think you're helping (you're not - it's becoming a macabre spectacle, a train wreck with a viewing platform that you're building at this point) trying to help you. Please start listening to us. I honestly feel sorry for you at this point - it's like watching someone self harm. Please, for the love of your preferred deity/higher power, stop it.

[Beedster]

On 30/01/2024 at 11:26, Beedster said:

 

He's got himself in a monkey trap entirely of his own making. Probably the only way out is to get some professional advice/help to structure his debts and obligations to customers, come clean to those customers by opening up authentic and honest channels of communication, and possibly seeks some form of coaching/counselling to help him avoid doing the same thing al over again. But all of that would require a level of bravery that most people don't possess, and the ability to sacrifice short-term security for something perhaps more meaningful. But he may simply see no option. Most people who do bad shit aren't bad people, they just f*** up and fall into a spiral of covering up with each stage making everything worse still. I've seen it happen to some good guys who had real talent but poor business sense, started out trying to do good and ended up hated by everyone. Not saying this is the case here as I don't know anything like enough of the facts, but I doubt he set out for things to be this way. 

 

I'm not meaning to be insensitive to or in any way critical of those who've lost their cash

 

11 hours ago, Beedster said:

Whatever your motivation for continuing with the farce and posting about doing so, it’s not a public service. You should take him to court, seek full repayment, and whatever the outcome, move on.

 

15 minutes ago, Burns-bass said:

Chris means well. Every time you engage with Jon and post it, you perpetuate this. In the end, we all know nothing will happen and you’ll become more and more exasperated with him.

Chris’s way is the fastest way to heal.

I appreciate you’ve lost money and that’s awful but you need to weigh this against the emotional impact of continuing with this. You’re not helping the bass community by harming yourself.

 

Thank you Lawrie. @EddieG, posting in a forum and then suggesting that people whose comments don't align with your views should 'just scroll on' is an interesting approach and perhaps indicative of at least part of the reason you're in this mess in the first place! Anyway, re the first post above, you and Letts are both in monkey traps of your own making. You both need to just let go of things, you can't do much about Letts, but get yourself out now, things won't get any better. 

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

+1 the most recent comments.

The only thing he cares about is money - building instruments and customer service are not even on his radar.

If you truly want to help the bass community, be Letts’ complete undoing; which in truth, you should have started a long time ago.

This softly softly give him another chance bo!!ocks does not help anyone. It probably has the opposite effect.

[Chris2112]

@EddieG, I was entirely sympathetic to where you had ended up in this farce until recently. The way Jon Letts has treated you has been beneath contempt. Once the case has been to court he should have paid you back and settled the judgement. His lack of talent as a luthier and apparent inability to make a viable business out of making and selling instruments are key factors to consider - a previous poster had suggested that he should stop arsing around trying to make a living out of building basses and get a job, at least until he has paid his debt to you. If he doesn't fancy stacking shelves once that's done, he can always go back to ripping off other mugs hoping for a cheap boutique bass. I think by offering him the chance to build you another bass, you just invite more pain and disappointment. As has been noted, you also let him off the hook for the court judgement you had received as you're effectively renegotiating the settlement with Mr Letts by entering into a contract for a new bass (your consideration for that contract being the money already paid years ago). 

 

 

 

Job Letts surely isn't the only crooked builder out there, nor the only fool who took on too much work to get through. It's a tale as old as time that was born with the internet bass community, where a builder could quickly fill their order book and and have more on the build table than they could possible finish in a reasonable time frame. So the complicated outstanding orders get left sitting whilst new basses are made and sold off to keep the lights on and the circus going...

 

FFS it happened with Joe Zon! One of the most renowned and longstanding luthiers in the field managed to get himself into a situation where his once-good name was dragged through the mud because he seemed unable or unwilling to finish a handful out outstanding basses over the course of several years. Oscar Pratt seemed like he could build a good looking bass but he too found himself apparently unwilling to finish outstanding orders leading to him being pilloried on Talkbass. 

 

 

 

I've always been skeptical of the business model of Jon Letts. I saw the instruments when they were first going round Basschat and frankly, they looked like some shonky shite that had been knocked out in a shed. You get what you pay for and they looked rubbish (well actually, Carl Thompson basses aren't cheap and the look rough and basic too). The world is full of dreamers hoping they're going to get a champagne experience for a lemonade price. Letts' work actually reminds of a Cristian Grosu of Grossman Guitars, another builder who appeared to hope to fill his order book by offering cheap builds and ultimately has delivered some very poorly made instruments. 

 

Guys like ACG, Fodera, Sei, Drozd etc have full order books because they're a proven quantity and the price they charge can be taken as a guarantee that they'll probably get it right. 

 

[Reggaebass]

I’ve read a lot of this and didn’t realise it started 10 years ago, I’m all for not letting someone get away with ripping me off but there comes a time when you have to put it down to experience, I feel your energy and time are wasted on this person who I don’t think is going to deliver anything now, I see you won the court case, I’d be contacting them to try and retrieve your money, good luck 

[NikNik]

3 hours ago, Chris2112 said:

@EddieG, I was entirely sympathetic to where you had ended up in this farce until recently. The way Jon Letts has treated you has been beneath contempt. Once the case has been to court he should have paid you back and settled the judgement. His lack of talent as a luthier and apparent inability to make a viable business out of making and selling instruments are key factors to consider - a previous poster had suggested that he should stop arsing around trying to make a living out of building basses and get a job, at least until he has paid his debt to you. If he doesn't fancy stacking shelves once that's done, he can always go back to ripping off other mugs hoping for a cheap boutique bass. I think by offering him the chance to build you another bass, you just invite more pain and disappointment. As has been noted, you also let him off the hook for the court judgement you had received as you're effectively renegotiating the settlement with Mr Letts by entering into a contract for a new bass (your consideration for that contract being the money already paid years ago). 

 

 

 

Job Letts surely isn't the only crooked builder out there, nor the only fool who took on too much work to get through. It's a tale as old as time that was born with the internet bass community, where a builder could quickly fill their order book and and have more on the build table than they could possible finish in a reasonable time frame. So the complicated outstanding orders get left sitting whilst new basses are made and sold off to keep the lights on and the circus going...

 

FFS it happened with Joe Zon! One of the most renowned and longstanding luthiers in the field managed to get himself into a situation where his once-good name was dragged through the mud because he seemed unable or unwilling to finish a handful out outstanding basses over the course of several years. Oscar Pratt seemed like he could build a good looking bass but he too found himself apparently unwilling to finish outstanding orders leading to him being pilloried on Talkbass. 

 

 

 

I've always been skeptical of the business model of Jon Letts. I saw the instruments when they were first going round Basschat and frankly, they looked like some shonky shite that had been knocked out in a shed. You get what you pay for and they looked rubbish (well actually, Carl Thompson basses aren't cheap and the look rough and basic too). The world is full of dreamers hoping they're going to get a champagne experience for a lemonade price. Letts' work actually reminds of a Cristian Grosu of Grossman Guitars, another builder who appeared to hope to fill his order book by offering cheap builds and ultimately has delivered some very poorly made instruments. 

 

Guys like ACG, Fodera, Sei, Drozd etc have full order books because they're a proven quantity and the price they charge can be taken as a guarantee that they'll probably get it right. 

 

You left out the king of them all: Darrin Huff.

[eude]

1 hour ago, NikNik said:

You left out the king of them all: Darrin Huff.

He's back by the way! Be warned!

[Bassman Sam]

1 hour ago, NikNik said:

You left out the king of them all: Darrin Huff.

Is that guy still at it? I'm surprised that he's not doing time or 6ft under, judging by the number of people he's ripped off.