Problematic creators and their music

[tegs07]

4 hours ago, Steve Browning said:

I was going to post about Lorri Maddox being 13 at the time of her union with Jimmy Page and was looking at the history of the age of consent in the US, not wanting to get things wrong.

 

Rather stunned to read that in 1880, the age of consent was generally between 10 and 12. I then read that, in Delaware it was 7!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shocking indeed to a modern audience. The concept of childhood is historically pretty recent. Renaissance paintings for example depict children as mini adults. Life expectancy in the 1860s (USA midwest) was also barely 39 years so by 15 you were middle aged (if you lasted that long).

 

Edit: Another example is Catherine of Aragon. Betrothed at the age of 3, married at barely 15. 

Would lock up the heir to the throne these days ( Andrew!!)

 

Edited April 14, 2023 by tegs07

[TimR]

My grandad was working in the mines aged 14. That's just a little bit over 100 years ago. 

[Waddo Soqable]

6 minutes ago, TimR said:

My grandad was working in the mines aged 14. That's just a little bit over 100 years ago. 

I'd advise him to "jack it in" if I were you... 

[TimR]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

But when it comes down to songs - if (for instance), someone doesn't want to play sweet home alabama because they think it is racist (which I have already said I disagree with), then there is no harm being done to anyway - there are thousands of other songs to do, and lots of other groups that can do them, so I don't see why there is an issue.

 

Except that we aren't talking about people not playing a song because they don't like it. 

 

We are taking about people not playing any of an artist's songs because of something the artist has been accused of doing. And not just in our bands, on the radio, not including them in shows, on TV. The artist (and the rest of their band in some cases) loses royalties etc. And the key thing here is 'accused', they've not actually been found guilty in any court of law.

 

It's a social media thing, where rumours and misinformation can bring down someone and the person who started it hides behind anonymity and there's no possibility of legal recourse. 

[TimR]

1 hour ago, greavesbass said:

My booring suburban neighbours would definitely say I'm weird...Does that mean my creations and music are to be avoided?

 

Depends if your neighbours say something about your behaviour based on half truths and misinformation and as a result people stop buying your art. 

Edited April 14, 2023 by TimR

[Steve Browning]

11 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

Except that we aren't talking about people not playing a song because they don't like it. 

 

We are taking about people not playing any of an artist's songs because of something the artist has been accused of doing. And not just in our bands, on the radio, not including them in shows, on TV. The artist (and the rest of their band in some cases) loses royalties etc. And the key thing here is 'accused', they've not actually been found guilty in any court of law.

 

It's a social media thing, where rumours and misinformation can bring down someone and the person who started it hides behind anonymity and there's no possibility of legal recourse. 

I'm reminded of a certain tv and radio personality who died an innocent man, but certainly wasn't. 

[itu]

Composers die and their actions will be forgotten, but good music lives forever. OK, pretty long.

[tauzero]

23 hours ago, tegs07 said:

Shocking indeed to a modern audience. The concept of childhood is historically pretty recent. Renaissance paintings for example depict children as mini adults. Life expectancy in the 1860s (USA midwest) was also barely 39 years so by 15 you were middle aged (if you lasted that long).

 

Edit: Another example is Catherine of Aragon. Betrothed at the age of 3, married at barely 15. 

Would lock up the heir to the throne these days ( Andrew!!)

 

 

Romeo was 16 and Juliet 13.

 

15-year-old Mary Queen of Scots married the 14-year-old Dauphin.

[Waddo Soqable]

3 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

 

 

15-year-old Mary Queen of Scots married the 14-year-old Dauphin.

She married a Dolphin.?   Duude that's twisted... 

[tauzero]

On 15/04/2023 at 16:34, Waddo Soqable said:

She married a Dolphin.?   Duude that's twisted... 

 

It had the seal of approval from the court. There was a porpoise, to form an alliance with France. Whales, however, was excluded.

[tegs07]

6 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

It had the seal of approval from the court. There was a porpoise, to form an alliance with France. Whales, however, was excluded.

Come on. Your just talking carp now.

[Steve Browning]

Well, this is the plaice for it. Not the sole place, of course.

[Phil Starr]

On 14/04/2023 at 16:44, greavesbass said:

How far do you take this cancel thinking. Artists by definition are a funny lot....I'm a musician and an artist/sculptor and probably look kinda "arty" what ever that means. I'm sure my boring suburban neighbours find me a bit odd...Does that mean my creations and music are to be avoided?

 

Until the day I die, as an eg .... I will fight for and play Brown Sugar. Its art, it was written by a "black respecting blues dude" and its a monumental piece of story telling and writing, but it is 'NOT' gratuitously nasty, filthy or offensive. As I said, an example of what it seems so many people now are scared of. 

Art can be scary and, even offensive, not that offensive art appeals to me personally but we do need it cause without it we're all gonna end up in a rocket fuelled version of the 'Stepford Wives' which is worse than just about anything I can think of.

 

A bit off point but it's all part of where the thread is I guess.

Hey I think this is trying to get the debate back on track. Brown Sugar is probably a better example than many other songs. There's no doubt Mick Jagger liked and loved black culture and people. Brown Sugar is credited as being um, stimulated by his excitement at the time with Marsha Hunt. The song contains references which shows he had read a lot about slavery, as anyone that interested in blues and where it came from would have done. His and Keith's faces when they played with Muddy Waters and the fact they called the band Rolling Stones is about as clear as it can be. The song does objectify women and has some unfortunate lines in it. "Scarred Old Slaver..... hear him whip the women" and "just like a young girl should" being just a couple of examples. For me Jagger was telling a story and celebrating one particular person in his love life and if you are happy that well this is just story telling.

 

I loved the song when it was first released. I'm sure it is not racist in it's intention. It's such a good tune. I still dance to it and sing along if I'm in the audience. I have no problem with anyone else playing the song. Would I perform this in front of my daughter or to my Jamaican friends? If so should I be playing it at all? I think as a performer you should probably think differently.

[diskwave]

Ok, were talking music here which is appropriate but in this crazy age of cancel anything that you dont like..ie the current literary Jeeves and Wooster debacle for eg, where next to expand the discussion? Destroy and get rid of all Nazi history? Films, books, witness testimony...The Camps?? For goodness sake where does this cancel madness end.

Its very wrong and very dangerous to erase history etc etc, and in that I include music too.

[Jakester]

37 minutes ago, greavesbass said:

Ok, were talking music here which is appropriate but in this crazy age of cancel anything that you dont like..ie the current literary Jeeves and Wooster debacle for eg, where next to expand the discussion? Destroy and get rid of all Nazi history? Films, books, witness testimony...The Camps?? For goodness sake where does this cancel madness end.

Its very wrong and very dangerous to erase history etc etc, and in that I include music too.

 

Yes, let's keep believing everything we read, and keep on stoking the culture wars, shall we? 

 

In relation to J&W, they are brilliant, but very much of their time. When reading it is very jarring to come across terms which are today unacceptable to use in society. 

 

According to the papers, the (limited) alterations include "numerous racial terms [which] have been either cut or altered both in character dialogue and narration in the voice of Bertie". None of the terms altered were in any way pivotal to the plot, and, if you're really that bothered, no doubt the original editions will still be published, or there are millions of unexpurgated second-hand copies available. I'm sure you were just as outraged when Hugh Laurie and Stephen Fry didn't use the terms in the television adaptations? No? Funny that....

 

To address your second hyperbolic question, there is a profound difference between fiction, and historical fact. Literally no-one (apart from a few cranks and nut-job deniers) are even suggesting that society should "Destroy and get rid of all Nazi history? Films, books, witness testimony...The Camps??" and to suggest that is not only wrong but also pretty offensive. 

 

But hey, if it keeps the Tories in power, it's worth, it, eh @greavesbass?

[neepheid]

Stalin, the OG of cancel culture

 

 

 

[diskwave]

2 hours ago, Jakester said:

When reading it is very jarring to come across terms which are today unacceptable to use in society. 

How dare you tell 'ME' what to read. Who the hell do you think you are mate. I rest my case. Im done.

[neepheid]

10 minutes ago, greavesbass said:

How dare you tell 'ME' what to read. Who the hell do you think you are mate. I rest my case. Im done.

 

Is this a wind up?

[Jakester]

23 minutes ago, greavesbass said:

How dare you tell 'ME' what to read. Who the hell do you think you are mate. I rest my case. Im done.

LOL @ predicable chin wobbling frother outrage whilst completely missing the point.  

 

3 hours ago, Jakester said:

and, if you're really that bothered, no doubt the original editions will still be published, or there are millions of unexpurgated second-hand copies available.

In your rush to be offended, you obviously overlooked this. 

[Bassassin]

Only a matter of time before a Free Speech Fundamentalist turned up to unironically scream at people to keep their opinions to themselves.

 

And get the thread locked, if this follows the typical BC pattern.

[G-Lo]

My point, like anything in life. If it feels wrong it is wrong. The only caveats-

think where your money is going. I have refused to fund Jamiroquai since he sacked Zender for wanting his fair cut for writing the Deeper Underground bassline. I have thoroughly enjoyed his music pirated, on the radio or would definitely buy second hand. Having said that I wouldnt boycott the Smiths despite feeling Morissey has lost his marbles a bit. On top of that, it's not like the rest of the band have followed him.

I cant expect musicians to be ahead of the curve of their society. I can tolerate mild homophobia in old reggae, less so in contemporary, and when its frothing at the mouth obsession, no thankyou.

The final caveat which is rarely discussed is song reception. How will the audience take it? Not the person looking to find offence, but Mr and Mrs Average. The example that springs to mind is Minor Threart's "Guilty of Being White"- a song written by teens and essentially complaining about racism they were experiencing and written for basement shows of local kids who would know exactly what and how was meant. Now, decades later, it's used as a White Power anthem.

 

End of the day, do what you think is right. I'd still play Blackmail Man if I could nail it- and be prepared for the rage, the song is THAT good. Then again I AM a bubble and squeak. I wouldnt want to play Spasticus Autisticus though, no one would care but... its wrong, innit. Unless youre disabled yourself its rude. 

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by G-Lo

[MacDaddy]

Does anyone care Gary Glitter has a writing credit on What's the Story Morning Glory?

[neepheid]

Just now, MacDaddy said:

Does anyone care Gary Glitter has a writing credit on What's the Story Morning Glory?

 

No.

[MacDaddy]

2 hours ago, neepheid said:

 

No.

 

[Jakester]

2 hours ago, MacDaddy said:

Does anyone care Gary Glitter has a writing credit on What's the Story Morning Glory?

 

Well, it's for use of a sample, not an actual positive contribution to the songwriting of the album, so not really.