Problematic creators and their music

[MacDaddy]

In the academic world it's only a matter of time. Universities teaching the classics happily espouse the ancient Greek philosophers who were practicing pederasts.

Edited May 30, 2023 by MacDaddy

[Pseudonym]

2 hours ago, tauzero said:

He'd have had some on display if he'd just gone on a few Pride marches.

 

No one was going to make Ronnie stay in a closet, that's for sure. But it would have been outstanding to see the twins doing security for a Pride march, the way Nicky Crane used to.

[leftybassman392]

2 hours ago, MacDaddy said:

In the academic world it's only a matter of time. Universities teaching the classics happily espouse the ancient Greek philosophers who were practicing pederasts.

 

Just to be (sort of) serious for a mo...

 

In Athens at the time it was normal behaviour, to the point where an adolescent boy would be considered weird if he didn't shack up with an older man for a couple of years.

 

While we're at it, you could also have mentioned that slave ownership was common at the time. Oh, and not forgetting that Athenian woman were second class citizens with effectively no rights. Those headscarves you see on statues were a legal requirement in much the same way as Islamic women being required to cover their faces in some states today. (Sparta was different though; women had many freedoms, and promiscuity was actively practised on the grounds that it was in the state's interest to have the pick of the gene pool.)

 

Different folks, different strokes. Just sayin...

 

 

[G-Lo]

1 hour ago, leftybassman392 said:

 

Just to be (sort of) serious for a mo...

 

In Athens at the time it was normal behaviour, to the point where an adolescent boy would be considered weird if he didn't shack up with an older man for a couple of years.

 

While we're at it, you could also have mentioned that slave ownership was common at the time. Oh, and not forgetting that Athenian woman were second class citizens with effectively no rights. Those headscarves you see on statues were a legal requirement in much the same way as Islamic women being required to cover their faces in some states today. (Sparta was different though; women had many freedoms, and promiscuity was actively practised on the grounds that it was in the state's interest to have the pick of the gene pool.)

 

Different folks, different strokes. Just sayin...

 

 

What headscarves? In Cyprus we had the cult of Aphrodite outside Paphos, where young women would go to the temple for two years and offer themselves to anyone before returning to town to settle down and marry. Then the Christian moral steamroller came along and desexualised everything  

[Frank Blank]

1 minute ago, G-Lo said:

Then the Christian moral steamroller came along and desexualised everything.

 

But not in Thaxted.

[leftybassman392]

52 minutes ago, G-Lo said:

What headscarves? In Cyprus we had the cult of Aphrodite outside Paphos, where young women would go to the temple for two years and offer themselves to anyone before returning to town to settle down and marry. Then the Christian moral steamroller came along and desexualised everything  

 

Here's one from the Loggia della signoria in Florence. It's actually Roman, but the subject was inspired by a greek original.

 

 

Here's another one, from a Greek vase located in (I think) The Louvre.

 

 

Here's a link to a study of veils in ancient Greece. It's a synopsis of a book, but you get the general idea.

 

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv1n357p0?turn_away=true

 

I'm not going to get into a long discussion/argument about this. It's just a statement of academic opinion supported by a range of evidence.

 

If you disagree, then that's fine - knock yourself out! (But bear in mind that the statue and the vase are things I have seen with my own eyes. The link is to a book written by an acknowledged scholar with expertise in the Ancient world.)

 

 

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by leftybassman392

[tauzero]

4 hours ago, MacDaddy said:

In the academic world it's only a matter of time. Universities teaching the classics happily espouse the ancient Greek philosophers who were practicing pederasts.

 

Well, practice makes perfect.

[TimR]

Up to 1885 the age of consent in England was 12 and 14 for girls and boys. 

 

My grandad was working down the mines aged 14.

 

You don't need to look too far back in English history. That would certainly still have been in living memory for some peole when many of us were born. 

[G-Lo]

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/may/06/can-i-still-listen-to-david-bowie-a-superfans-dilemma

 

A pretty interesting read, and raises the question of both whether the artist's work is tarnished and if the tarnish goes back to before the crime. Quite an interesting question if you consider Michael Jackson was recording great music while still a child

[nekomatic]

Thanks for posting that, it’s a thought-provoking perspective. 

[Baloney Balderdash]

I don't approve of murder, racism, or burning down ancient Christian churches for that matter, no matter the questionable history of Christianity and the Catholic Church's undeniable monstrosities, but this is a damn great song:

  

[Barking Spiders]

Thing is if we 'cancelled' everyone who had skeletons in their closet we'd all probably be lonely and friendless. I'm guessing we all have close friends who might have some dark secrets but if we knew about these we'd might unfriend them or at least become wary of them.  As for musicians, writers etc I find it best just to enjoy what they do and not deep dive into their personalities.  Often ignorance truly is bliss. 

[Greg Edwards69]

But there's a large difference between skeletons in one's closet and being an absolute monster. Whilst lapses of judgment can be overlooked, people like Gary Glitter and Ian Watkins should be strung up by their balls with guitar strings.

 

But that's what the thread is all about. Where is that line between ignoring misdeeds and cancelling?

[tauzero]

I went to see Gary Glitter a couple of times when he was coming back from obscurity before all the sex stuff came out, and I've still got his first LP. I can't retrospectively not enjoy his performances, can I?

[Woodinblack]

35 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

But there's a large difference between skeletons in one's closet and being an absolute monster.

 

But what if the skeleton in the closet is that you are a monster? All these people were just normal until people found out. I am sure (well, I know) there are a lot of rapists and wife beaters out there famous for their music and get a free pass.

 

36 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

But that's what the thread is all about. Where is that line between ignoring misdeeds and cancelling?

 

The line is entirely personal. We have got a Michael jackson song in the set, it goes down fine. We have been asked to do leader of the gang before (we didn't do it, but it is not a song that we have in our list, and I double that some of the others know it). I can quite happily say I wouldn't do a lost prophet song, but I don't know their songs, so they don't mean anything to me, I had never heard of them until he hit the news. I am sure there are many people out there with their full album collection and they have songs that people grew up with and love, and still listen to, if not publicly.

 

 

 

[MacDaddy]

1 hour ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

.

 

But that's what the thread is all about. Where is that line between ignoring misdeeds and cancelling?

 

There is no line. An unwelcome touch of knee is just as bad as being bruttally raped. The actor Matt Damon got in trouble for saying otherwise:

 

Damon advocated for a "spectrum of behavior" analysis[186][187][188][189] of sexual misconduct cases, noting that some are more serious than others.[190][188][189] The comment caused offense to prominent members of the Me Too movement[190][191] and the public for being "tone-deaf in understand[ing] what abuse is like".[191][190] 

[dclaassen]

Had a bl who wouldn’t do Clapton songs. I’m currently playing with a really good start-up country band. We are doing Chicks songs. I really don’t agree with some of the statements Natalie Mains has made, but am very happy to enjoy and play their music. 
 

My line is almost no line. I strongly dislike the term “problematic” because of its place in the current cancel culture. 
 

I also really liked “Usual Suspects” and don’t think I can unlike it just because KS is “problematic “.

[Woodinblack]

28 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

Had a bl who wouldn’t do Clapton songs.

 

Well, that sounds sensible to me. Regardless of his views!

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, MacDaddy said:

There is no line. An unwelcome touch of knee is just as bad as being bruttally raped. The actor Matt Damon got in trouble for saying otherwise:

 

Damon advocated for a "spectrum of behavior" analysis[186][187][188][189] of sexual misconduct cases, noting that some are more serious than others.[190][188][189] The comment caused offense to prominent members of the Me Too movement[190][191] and the public for being "tone-deaf in understand[ing] what abuse is like".[191][190] 

 

I just asked Mrs Zero whether "An unwelcome touch of knee is just as bad as being bruttally raped". Her response was "WHAAAT??". Being raped is a far more traumatic experience than having an unwelcome touch on the knee. AFAIK, nobody has killed themselves because their knee has been touched. I'm not minimising the unwelcome touch of knee, but you're seriously minimising rape.

[diskwave]

1 hour ago, tauzero said:

An unwelcome touch of knee is just as bad as being bruttally raped

Plse tel me Im not reading this. R u serious? What is happening to the world? Soon you wont be able to even breath the same air as the opposite sex....think about that....your in a small environment with the opp sex, you wont know what to do......Madness...utter flippin madness. 

[neepheid]

7 minutes ago, greavesbass said:

Plse tel me Im not reading this. R u serious? What is happening to the world? Soon you wont be able to even breath the same air as the opposite sex....think about that....your in a small environment with the opp sex, you wont know what to do......Madness...utter flippin madness. 

 

Careful who you attribute quotes to - @tauzero was quoting @MacDaddy...

[tauzero]

1 hour ago, neepheid said:

 

Careful who you attribute quotes to - @tauzero was quoting @MacDaddy...

 

And then saying pretty much the opposite.

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, greavesbass said:

Plse tel me Im not reading this. R u serious? What is happening to the world? Soon you wont be able to even breath the same air as the opposite sex....think about that....your in a small environment with the opp sex, you wont know what to do......Madness...utter flippin madness. 

 

Its one or two peoples opinion, not the law. I actually never had too much difficulty being in a small environment with the opposite sex avoiding sexually assaulting them

 

[Beedster]

7 hours ago, MacDaddy said:

 

There is no line. An unwelcome touch of knee is just as bad as being bruttally raped. The actor Matt Damon got in trouble for saying otherwise:

 

Damon advocated for a "spectrum of behavior" analysis[186][187][188][189] of sexual misconduct cases, noting that some are more serious than others.[190][188][189] The comment caused offense to prominent members of the Me Too movement[190][191] and the public for being "tone-deaf in understand[ing] what abuse is like".[191][190] 

I assume you’re being ironic? 

[MacDaddy]

My post contained a quote from Matt Damon's Wiki page, which should have been apparent by the included footnotes.

It's "prominent members of the Me Too movement" y'all should be arguing with!