Problematic creators and their music

[Jakester]

3 hours ago, Cato said:

The simple probability is that if you play Michael Jackson songs in public there's a good chance that someone will either raise an objection or at least raise the question of whether it's 'appropriate'.

 

Yep - one of things to consider is we sometimes do joint gigs with younger age-group ensembles as well, so that possibility might be more than remote for us. 

 

3 hours ago, chris_b said:

You can't select a song based on how angelic it's writer was.

 

True, but conversely we don't *have* to popularise the work of (for example) an absolute shite either when there's other stuff out there. 

 

2 hours ago, SumOne said:

Chris Rock's latest standup:

 

"The thing I have a problem with is selective outrage.

 

Yep, although I suppose we're trying to pre-empt the outrage, rather than being outraged ourselves!

 

2 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Is beautiful art still beautiful if the artist is scum? I think it is. We usually discover the art before the detail of the artist's life so that first impression of beauty is very difficult to shake.

 

Well put - this is the view I would tend to incline towards personally. 

 

2 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Enid Blyton: still a Good Read for children, even if there are Golliwogs in the stories..?

 

Enid Blyton was a horrible, horrible racist. Her books have been 'sanitised' decades ago, well before the current furore over Dahl.

 

2 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

What's so special about public figures at all..? Are anonymous folk except from this moral gaze..? Why..? It all seems very odd to me, with dotted lines drawn in thick fog surrounding a moral maze. I think that there are more important issues that are worthy of action, but... Who am I to sort out what is and what isn't..?

 

Well, that's sort of a wider question - this is to some extent a practical one for us, rather than an abstract philosophical one!

 

2 hours ago, Franticsmurf said:

For me there's a clear difference between liking or performing the music and supporting or promoting the views or lifestyles of those who created it. I would have no problem playing these songs if the set/band/client requested them. I accept that there may be a few who cannot make the distinction between the music and the person. But I believe that attitude is unreasonable unless the music itself condones, supports or promotes immoral behaviour or is so associated with it as to be impossible to separate from the behaviour itself.

 

'Tears in Heaven' is a great song. If we accept that it is tainted by association with Clapton, we must also accept that it is associated with loss, sadness and grieving and has meaning for a lot of people who have found some comfort through that song. Which side do we take?

 

I like this view, but then someone pointed to the Rock With You lyrics (not written by MJ) which start:

 

"Girl, close your eyes
Let that rhythm get into you
Don't try to fight it
There ain't nothing that you can do
Relax your mind
Lay back and groove with mine"

 

To what extent do you then do a 'sense check' of lyrics to check they might not be objectionable? Or again, is that possibly over-sensitive? (I think so). 

 

1 hour ago, Oomo said:

c) does the thing they've created exist independently of them?
 

If someone awful made a lovely chair, then to be it's still a functional chair, it doesn't stop being something that stops me falling on the floor, and I wouldn't destroy it. They don't benefit from me sitting on it or not. Of course I'd stop buying anything new from them, and discourage others from buying their products.

 

This is a good viewpoint for me. 

 

1 hour ago, jonnybass said:

MJ inparticular…is it all his material? Or are Jackson 5 numbers ok? A band I played in honestly had this discussion. 

 

This was specifically in the context of discussion of new arrangements, and whether or not we should go ahead and do an arrangement of MJ music. Not sure which track ATM. We have already performed a Jackson 5 track in the past, after the Netflix doc came out with no objections. 

27 minutes ago, Mykesbass said:

Difficult one isn't it?

 

Yep! 🤣

[Burns-bass]

Classic moral maze.

 

You think you’ve navigated a clear path through then you hit a dead end.

 

The music and songs take on a life of their own, and have huge resonance for people beyond the original artist, and in some cases the original recording.

If you listen to the lyrics of much early blues (which I play) it’s horrendously misogynistic ( although you do have to consider how much was artistic licence).
 

Personally, I don’t have a problem playing these tracks, and would continue to do so.
 

Playing the tracks isn’t an endorsement of the individual, their views and opinions, or actions. 

[Dad3353]

19 minutes ago, Jakester said:

...Enid Blyton was a horrible, horrible racist....

 

Hmm... Best steer clear of Daniel Defoe, then. 

[MacDaddy]

2 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Snip *. 

 

Then there are modern offences - Gary Glitter wrote some great tunes but he was convicted of multiple offences.

There are no end of celebs who have domestic violence convictions too.

 

* Snip 

 

 

Agreed Gary Glitter wrote some great songs, but my understanding is that he sold his song catalogue so doesn't make money from them anymore?

 

2 hours ago, Oomo said:

Snip *

 

E.g. if a film's actor does something terrible and everyone boycotts the movie, * snip

 

All it takes is an accusation, and the court of public opinion condems, regardless of the truth.

[Doctor J]

You could just write your own music?

[Waddo Soqable]

If you over-analyse.. you'd never buy anything, go anywhere, do anything... Life's too short for all that, if it's a good song and fits in your set, show, whatever.. play it.. 

[lowdown]

7 hours ago, chris_b said:

 

PS

I don't like Quincy Jones. His arrangements were always about him and not the song.  

 

All just opinions, of course. To me, QJ's arranging work on 'Sinatra At The Sands' is anything but that...It's terrific, skilful arranging of the highest order.

 

 

[hiram.k.hackenbacker]

4 minutes ago, lowdown said:

To me, QJ's arranging work on 'Sinatra At The Sands' is anything but that...It's terrific, skilful arranging of the highest order.

 Love that album. Ooozes quality. Might give it another spin right now actually.

[Franticsmurf]

13 hours ago, Jakester said:

To what extent do you then do a 'sense check' of lyrics to check they might not be objectionable?

That's a personal choice, or at least one for the band. I have yet to come across a song in a proposed set list that I find personally objectionable enough to refuse to play. Our singer changes a couple of words in one song to remove innuendo that he objects to, which is fine by me as it doesn't change the song and most in the audience wouldn't notice.

 

13 hours ago, Jakester said:

Or again, is that possibly over-sensitive? (I think so). 

I guess you have to take into account the context. In a pub full of stereotypes, you can get away with a lot more than, say, a wedding. If it's been played on the radio, the likelihood is it'll be fine for most venues. Common sense should prevail.

 

We played a wake once (in our defence, we didn't know it was a wake at the time as it was a last minute agent booking) and ended the first half with 'Knocking on Heaven's Door'. 😃

[cetera]

17 hours ago, fretmeister said:

Michael Jackson was never convicted AFAIK.

 

15 hours ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

Neither was Jimmy Saville.

 

Yeah, but Saville's songs were shyte.....

[fretmeister]

17 hours ago, Doctor J said:

You could just write your own music?

 

 

Steady - most people refuse to even learn covers properly!

[TimR]

I don't see any issues with playing Micheal Jackson's songs.

 

Harris and Glitter weren't particularly producing long lived songs that were mainstays of any radio station playlists.

[MacDaddy]

11 minutes ago, TimR said:

I don't see any issues with playing Micheal Jackson's songs.

 

Harris and Glitter weren't particularly producing long lived songs that were mainstays of any radio station playlists.

 

Rock and Roll Christmas, was.

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, Franticsmurf said:

We played a wake once (in our defence, we didn't know it was a wake at the time as it was a last minute agent booking) and ended the first half with 'Knocking on Heaven's Door'. 😃

 

I trust you didn't open the set by inviting the happy couple up for the first dance.

 

The whole question is set in a very specific context. Uganda has just made homosexuality punishable by death, so I think "Two Tribes" might go down rather badly there for other reasons than Ukraine. Probably best not play anything by George Michael, Queen, or any number of others if you happen to be gigging there.

 

Personally, I separate performer and performance. So Morrissey might have unpleasant right-wing views but that doesn't matter to me because he's such a bloody awful singer and I can't stand listening to him. Roger Waters may be a Putin fanboi but I will still happily play "Comfortably Numb". 

[chris_b]

Maybe all music should come with a DBS check.

 

Then we'll know it's safe to play.

[Jakester]

19 hours ago, Doctor J said:

You could just write your own music?

 

Well, the specific question was about arranging tunes for an orchestra - which aren't usually best-known for playing originals...😉

 

12 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Maybe all music should come with a DBS check.

 

Then we'll know it's safe to play.

 

Well, that's rather the sort of hyperbolic nonsense I was hoping to avoid . This is a practical issue for us - there have been lots of views aired within the orchestra, but I thought it might be helpful to seek the views of a wider group outside our 'bubble'.

 

On the whole there's been some very sensible and useful comments made, so thanks to all who offered contributions - I will certainly be taking some of the viewpoints on board to inform our discussions. 

[Doctor J]

36 minutes ago, Jakester said:

 

Well, the specific question was about arranging tunes for an orchestra - which aren't usually best-known for playing originals...😉

 

Well, somebody had to write the music 😉

[jonnybass]

55 minutes ago, Jakester said:

 

Well, the specific question was about arranging tunes for an orchestra - which aren't usually best-known for playing originals...😉

 

 

Well, that's rather the sort of hyperbolic nonsense I was hoping to avoid . This is a practical issue for us - there have been lots of views aired within the orchestra, but I thought it might be helpful to seek the views of a wider group outside our 'bubble'.

 

On the whole there's been some very sensible and useful comments made, so thanks to all who offered contributions - I will certainly be taking some of the viewpoints on board to inform our discussions. 

I think what’s also worth asking is does anyone find it a deal breaker? Is it a line they can’t cross, if they can’t can they share why not? 
 

this might help with your chat and reaching the right answer for your orchestra.

[neepheid]

We play Smooth Criminal, but it's the Alien Ant Farm cover if anyone's got a beef with it.

I tend to shy away from songs that have troublesome (for me) lyrics - think "Rock You Like a Hurricane" or "Under My Thumb" etc.  If it makes me go "ew" - it has to try pretty hard - but if it's mysogynistic or just ikky enough in some way to make me react that way then I'll veto it.  It's got nothing to do with who wrote it or originally performed it, it's about the content.

 

 

[Greg Edwards69]

I've gone back and forth so many times on this subject. It is difficult to know where to draw the line.  We dropped the couple of MJ songs we had in out repertoire when a certain documentary aired a few years ago and haven't put them back in since - not because of controversy surrounding the man and his songs, but simply because we haven't been bothered to resurrect them. 

 

I personally would not be offended if I saw another band playing MJ songs, or even a MJ tribute act. I've always thought of him as a tragic, mentally damaged person who didn't see any harm in what he did in his private life.  Gary Glitter however is an absolute monster of a human being and I feel it would be incredibly distasteful if a band played any of his songs.

 

FWIW, I posted on a FB group a some time ago after the killing of George Floydd and the surge in popularity of the black lives matter movement. I said something along the lines of whether we should collectively revaluate the lyrical content of perennial cover band 'classics', such as Brown Sugar, for example (not that my band had played in many years anyway, but a lot of bands do).  Let's just say the internet did not approve of my query.

 

A few people agreed and got the point. Some told be to stop being a woke snowflake and just get out and play. And some, who clearly didn't read my post properly, told me my band must be crap if that's the sort of dated songs we churn out.

Edited March 23, 2023 by Greg Edwards69

[diskwave]

He was aquitted so what's the problem? Its also important to think about all those amazing musicians who played on those incredible tunes AND all the production bods too. To not play them is to do a huge disservice to Rod Temperton, QJ and all of them and not least the tunes themselves which today still stand head and shoulders above so much else.

Edited March 22, 2023 by greavesbass

[Woodinblack]

On 21/03/2023 at 17:29, SubsonicSimpleton said:

Neither was Jimmy Saville.

he was never tried, MJ was.

[Woodinblack]

12 hours ago, Franticsmurf said:

We played a wake once (in our defence, we didn't know it was a wake at the time as it was a last minute agent booking) and ended the first half with 'Knocking on Heaven's Door'. 😃

that's terrible. Not that it was a wake, just playing that song anyway 😂

[Woodinblack]

4 hours ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

whether we should collectively revaluate the lyrical content of perennial cover band 'classics', such as Brown Sugar, for example

we veto'd that one a while back as the singer didn't feel comfortable with it.

[itu]

If I hate B. Springsteen's voice, but I've heard few very good versions of his songs sung by someone else, are his songs good?

 

If someone voted for democraps or republican white trash, is it OK to listen to the great music that idiot made?

 

If late Wolfgang Amadeus Beetroot had controversial opinions, and even actions, can we consider symphony no. 9 a masterpiece? (By the way, he received money from his work, so he can not be a divine artist, but just a simple workhorse, no?)