Timing (or lack thereof)

[Dankology]

We're doing some recording at the moment and are tracking the instruments on top of drum tracks that were done to a click - my most hated form of recording (which may well be relevant to the problem I'm having).

 

When I look at my bass tracks in the DAW, I am consistently just ahead of the beat, regardless of song or tempo. And I can't seem to correct for this... It doesn't sound overtly wrong but I wonder if getting this right will tighten up the general feel of things - and even if it is working as-is, I think I'd like to develop the ability to actually play on the beat too.

 

What are the panel's thoughts? I can't decide if this is just how I play, if I'm just in need of practice or if I am somehow hard-wired with crap timing. Any pointers as to how to work on this would be very much appreciated.

[Lozz196]

I think the term for this is pushing the beat. I’m the opposite, my natural style is slightly behind the beat though when recording I try to push it as it gives a bit more urgency & snap to the track.

[Dad3353]

3 minutes ago, Dankology said:

... When I look at my bass tracks in the DAW, I am consistently just ahead of the beat ...

 

Could you 'screenshot' this, please..? It's possibly just a matter of degree; half a bar ahead is obviously a tad 'too much', but bass notes have a certain build-up to them, so it's not always the peak of the note that one hears first. If we could see how far away from the beat you are, we could maybe advise a bit better..?
Another point is that it's Music, not Mathematics, and often enough, too 'mechanical' doesn't cut the mustard. Let's see, first, though (and maybe a quick sonic extract, so as to hear what's what..?).

If you can. 

 

Douglas

[Dankology]

I'll grab some screenshots and try and get an audio sample to post later...

[BigRedX]

You say the timing isn't "overtly wrong", so would you have noticed anything if you hadn't looked at the waveforms in your DAW? If it sounds fine then it is fine and stop worrying.

 

However if you want to change this and you are playing consistently ahead of the beat you could simply pull the bass part back until you are happy with the synchronisation between the bass and the other instruments. TBH it can't be that far out or surely one of the other band members would have said something by now. And remember that there is a big difference in what works live and what makes a great recording.

 

IMO the is nothing inherently wrong or right about playing to a click track, provided that you use the right type of click and you also know when it's not appropriate.

 

With the Terrortones before we went into the studio we'd try all the songs we intended to record with and without a click. Some benefited from the extra tightness that a constant tempo brought, some needed a variable tempo click so that each section has the right feel, and some just sounded best without. No overall right answer just a matter of picking the right solution for each song.

 

Also the type of music being played/recorded will have an influence on how tight the all the parts should be.

 

And this IMO is where home recording tends to fall down, because we spend too much time being over-analytical about individual aspects of the performance and not look at the whole recoding/arrangement/production, which ultimately is what counts. Having an objective 3rd party (a producer) is always a good idea.

 

 

[Waddo Soqable]

As I  mentioned in some other thread, a thing I was briefly involved with had some basic recorded guitar and bass tracks "chopped" by the engineer, to surgically remove any sound not microscopically on the beat, by comparison it sounded pretty duff, like something created by a computer, rather than a bunch of guys playing a song. 

There were no glaring mistakes at all and perfectly good usable "takes", just this guy took it upon himself to "improve" on nature! 

As @Dad3353 says, music is not mathematics. 

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Dankology said:

It doesn't sound overtly wrong

 

This. If it sounds right to you and the other musicians, it's fine, provided you are in sync with the other instruments and drums. Music is an audible, not a visual experience. Are the drums real or from the computer?

[WinterMute]

Are you sure it's not a latency issues, are you listening to the input bass sound when recording rather than the output from the DAW?

 

If the timing is absolutely consistently ahead, then you may be suffering from the round-trip latency of the system, it's worth checking.

 

If thats the case, as BigRedX says, drag the track back into line with the drums and see what it sounds like.

[Dankology]

Thanks for all the replies.

 

To clarify: these are actual drums, recorded to a click and when I play my parts I am monitoring the live bass sound (not though the DAW).

 

Interestingly, when I've zoomed in on some of the tracks, the kick drum is often similarly slightly ahead of the beat (and this was not recorded at the same time as my part, so I'm not to blame!). When I've tested myself playing to a click track on my own exactly the same thing happens though.

 

 I did wonder about whether this would have ever come to my notice if I hadn't had the option of zooming into the waveform but then I also wonder whether it would have just been one of those things that subtly compromise a track.

 

In terms of the recordings, it's not desperately important as we are essentially just routining things at the moment with a number of possible endpoints: some of these tracks may end up being the finished article, some may get re-recorded live, we may book some time in the studio and do some from scratch.

 

Having said that all that, I think it's something I would like to work on as I know when I use Ableton to record loops I really have to work at it to not have the initial attack of the first note cut off.

[BigRedX]

Just because the drums were recorded with the drummer listening to the click track does not mean that they will be exactly on the beat unless they have been edited afterwards to make them so. Unless you are planning to lots of editing and moving of song sections as part of the production process it really doesn't matter where the actual notes land so long as all the different instruments are in time with each other.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that this problem may be down to "listening with your eyes and not with your ears", in which case you probably don't need to worry.

[iconic]

14 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I think the term for this is pushing the beat. I’m the opposite, my natural style is slightly behind the beat though when recording I try to push it as it gives a bit more urgency & snap to the track.

So was Bernard Edwards, but he didn't sound too shabby😉

[Owen]

1. Recording to a metronome click is a discipline in itself. Recording to a drum machine pattern which is suitable for the groove you are looking for is MUCH easier. There is so much more information in it.

 

2. Something is making you hear your part as not right. It is entirely possible that you are not right (sorry, it happens). But it is also ENTIRELY possible that someone else on the track is not right and you are. 

[Franticsmurf]

12 hours ago, Dankology said:

To clarify: these are actual drums, recorded to a click and when I play my parts I am monitoring the live bass sound (not though the DAW).

It could still be latency, as the sounds are coming from, and going back into the software regardless of how you monitor.

 

As has been said above, it's how it sounds, not how it looks, that matters.

 

I find playing to a click quite difficult and in my own recordings I rarely do it.

[Damnthatlazlo]

You could save the file in the daw, 
create a copy file and edit all the bassnotes in that copy to be bang on and do a comparison. 

Id think the original would sound better, like others have said if everything is ‘perfect’ it’s a little boring. 

[BigRedX]

28 minutes ago, Franticsmurf said:

It could still be latency, as the sounds are coming from, and going back into the software regardless of how you monitor.

 

Depends on how your recording system is set up. In the days when I had my own full-blown home studio, all recording and monitoring was done via the desk. Since none of the audio was making the complete round trip to the computer and back out again, there were no latency issues to contend with. 

 

28 minutes ago, Franticsmurf said:

I find playing to a click quite difficult and in my own recordings I rarely do it.

 

IME it's simply a question of finding the right thing to play to, and then practice.

 

When working with live drums and a click you need to have something that the drummer is comfortable playing along to. That might be a click or it might be a loop or rhythm pattern with some element of "groove" to it. Most of the drummers I've worked with prefer a regular click so they can create their own "groove" around that. The problem that most drummers have is that when they are exactly on the click they can't hear it because the drums obscure the sound, which is why a regular click with the drums woven around it works best. The rest of the band play to the drums and should never listen to the click unless there are sections without drums that they need timing information for, in which case I would provide a click for those sections only (and I would try both a regular click and one "quantised" to the main drum "groove" to see which produces the best performance).

 

If I'm doing a song with programmed drums, I'll always get at least a basic drum pattern going first before I try recording any other instruments.

Edited March 24, 2023 by BigRedX

[JohnR]

16 hours ago, Dankology said:

We're doing some recording at the moment and are tracking the instruments on top of drum tracks that were done to a click - my most hated form of recording (which may well be relevant to the problem I'm having).

 

When I look at my bass tracks in the DAW, I am consistently just ahead of the beat, regardless of song or tempo. And I can't seem to correct for this... It doesn't sound overtly wrong but I wonder if getting this right will tighten up the general feel of things - and even if it is working as-is, I think I'd like to develop the ability to actually play on the beat too.

 

What are the panel's thoughts? I can't decide if this is just how I play, if I'm just in need of practice or if I am somehow hard-wired with crap timing. Any pointers as to how to work on this would be very much appreciated.

It it sounds right to you and the others involved then it is fine. It's undesirable to try and achieve quantization-like timing. I'd bet you could look at many famous bass and drum tracks in software and find the same thing.

[leschirons]

I seem to remember a period (80's?) When bass players and drummers found themselves pretty much redundant for studio work due to the advent of programming. I also remember the next big thing which was software that added the "human feel" back into tracks as they sounded too manufactured. 

 

I've always played in front of the beat and I'm aware that I do it. Not saying it's right, or good and try as I may, can't change but eventually, it seems to become integral to the sound that the band has.

On the other hand, I suppose it could be any one, or more,  of the technical possibilities that have been proffered.

[miles'tone]

A good hack that I sussed out for myself, that works for me at least, is to listen to the drum track and have a bop around whilst scatting/singing the bass part I have in mind without my bass in hand. 

It really helped to teach my brain where my beat should be without much thought required as I'm literally engaging as a listener first before I start playing. 

Might work for you too.

[Baloney Balderdash]

Most music, there are exceptions, benefit from being organic rather than mechanical.

 

Organic will in by far most cases sound more alive and interesting where as strictly mechanical will in by far most cases end up sounding clinical and boring.

 

If it sound good it is good, and I am not convinced you actually would like the sound of everything being robotically/clinically straight dead on the beat.

 

Now in certain electronic music there might be a point with everything being robotic/clinical, whereas most other music would suffer from this and actually offer a less satisfactory listening experience.

 

As people have pointed out it is music not simple mathematics without any variables (there's a a reason why almost all new robotic technology is based on artificial neurological networks rather than simple rigid predetermined scripted algorithms, the latter completely lacking the complexity and flexibility that is needed to solve actual real life problems).   

 

Swing, groove and feel is a thing in music, even a very essential thing, especially feel, true musical timing (rather than being on time), and neither of those happen with everything being dead on clinically/mechanically straight on beat.

 

Don't listen with your eyes, and don't look at the world through square glasses, the world is not made of nothing but squares (even if it might sadly appear that way sometimes ).

 

Do you perceive your music as a (complex) living breathing organism, or a mechanical construct, a (simple automat) machine?

 

Which do you find most pleasing?

 

Which would you rather people associate your music with?

 

 

That said, of course it is still possible that you do in fact have bad timing, just saying that what you have discovered by looking closer at those tracks isn't necessarily a case of it, and that it is still totally possible that there in fact is absolutely nothing wrong with your and your drummers timing.

 

As said if it sounds good it is good, and having everything straight dead on beat almost certainly wouldn't give a more satisfactory result, likely rather on the contrary.

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 23/03/2023 at 18:23, Waddo Soqable said:

As I  mentioned in some other thread, a thing I was briefly involved with had some basic recorded guitar and bass tracks "chopped" by the engineer, to surgically remove any sound not microscopically on the beat, by comparison it sounded pretty duff, like something created by a computer, rather than a bunch of guys playing a song. 

There were no glaring mistakes at all and perfectly good usable "takes", just this guy took it upon himself to "improve" on nature! 

As @Dad3353 says, music is not mathematics. 

Hopefully you didn't pay him for ruining your takes?

[Waddo Soqable]

30 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Hopefully you didn't pay him for ruining your takes?

Nope, it was someone else's demo project so "not my circus, not my monkeys"... I just played on it and let them do what they want with it ! 

[TheLowDown]

If you set the metronome or drum track for a an exercise, and then consciously make an effort to play behind the beat or on the beat or ahead of the beat, then it will give you greater awareness of your own timing. 

Edited March 25, 2023 by TheLowDown
speeling etc

[diskwave]

Could be latency.

Edited March 25, 2023 by greavesbass

[chris_b]

IMO leaning into the beat and playing behind the beat work on gigs but correct timing, playing on the beat, is what I'd prefer to hear on a recording.

[lowdown]

6 hours ago, greavesbass said:

Could be latency.

 

Yes, it might be worth the OP looking into Delay Compensation. I don't use Ableton so can't offer solid advice.

 

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209072409-Delay-Compensation-FAQ