Timing (or lack thereof)

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 minutes ago, lowdown said:

 

Yes, it might be worth the OP looking into Delay Compensation. I don't use Ableton so can't offer solid advice.

 

https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/articles/209072409-Delay-Compensation-FAQ

Never heard of negative latency before...

 

Didn't he say his bass is recorded slightly ahead of the beat?

[lowdown]

22 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Never heard of negative latency before...

 

Didn't he say his bass is recorded slightly ahead of the beat?

 

You can adjust delay compensation on both Audio recordings or Midi track rendering these days. Usually on a track by track basis. And both on a '+' or '-' basis:

 

I don't use Ableton, but in Nuendo, there is a slider for adjusting Compensation on each track.

This is also great for Sample libraries where you want to offset start times for long notes, legato times, Orchestral crescendo start times, attack times or short notes etc...

 

I'm not saying it's the answer to the OP's problem, but it might be worth investigating via the link I left above.

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by lowdown

[Baloney Balderdash]

9 minutes ago, lowdown said:

 

You can adjust compensation on both Audio or Midi tracks these days. Usually on a track by track basis. And both on a '+' or '-' basis:

 

I don't use Ableton, but in Nuendo, there is a slider for adjusting on each track.

This is also great for Sample libraries where you want to offset start times for long notes/Legato times/attack times or short notes etc:

 

 

 

I am pretty certain that doesn't let you hear the track before the recording has been processed by the computer when you are recording.

 

Hence can't be the reason why the bass track was recorded ahead of the beat.

 

Edited March 25, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[linear]

I have had exactly this problem.  It can be ahead or behind.

 

There is obviously a delay between you playing a note and it getting converted to digital and passed on to the DAW.  The driver for you interface tells the DAW what this delay is, and the DAW moves your recorded track ahead by the appropriate amount.  However.  Sometimes the number reported by the driver is incorrect.  If the number is too small your recording will appear behind the beat.  If the number is too large your recording will be ahead.

 

What you need to do is a kind of loopback test, where you connect an output from the interface to an input and record sound from an existing track into a new track.  If all is well the tracks will line up perfectly.  Otherwise, you can measure how much it is out by, and Ableton has a special place in the settings where you can correct for this.  It's not Delay Compensation in Ableton btw - that's a per track setting for a different type of latency issue.

 

This is an old video, but the concept is still the same.  Skip to 3:53 - "Driver Error compensation."

 

 

 

[Dankology]

I'm pretty sure this isn't a latency issue. 

 

I'm currently recording in Reaper which seems to be rock solid in every other respect. I experienced the same issue in Ableton and also on another system running Reaper: I'm pretty sure this is me.

 

Much as I'm beginning to recognise that this is an ingrained aspect of my playing and one that likely has minimal impact on the overall performance,  I really would like to develop the ability to play on, before and after the beat at will...

[Baloney Balderdash]

I don't understand though why not using the direct monitoring feature of the sound interface for the instrument recording and have the track played back regularly on top/beneath it?

 

Add whatever effects you need physically in form of pedals as you are recording, or in form of VST post production when mixing (normally I would want to have as a dry original recording as possible to work with for post production mixing).

 

How I do it.

Edited March 25, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[lowdown]

3 minutes ago, linear said:

 

What you need to do is a kind of loopback test, where you connect an output from the interface to an input and record sound from an existing track into a new track.  If all is well the tracks will line up perfectly.  

 

 

Yes, the Loopback test is usually a good idea.

[linear]

2 minutes ago, Dankology said:

I'm pretty sure this isn't a latency issue. 

 

I'm currently recording in Reaper which seems to be rock solid in every other respect. I experienced the same issue in Ableton and also on another system running Reaper: I'm pretty sure this is me.

 

Much as I'm beginning to recognise that this is an ingrained aspect of my playing and one that likely has minimal impact on the overall performance,  I really would like to develop the ability to play on, before and after the beat at will...

 

You may well be correct. 

 

The same concept does apply for any DAW; I just assumed you were using Ableton.  If I'm understanding correctly, the drums tracked to a click and the recorded track was ahead.  And then you tracked and you were ahead.  You get where I'm coming from.  Could just be coincidence, of course, but that test I linked to is worth doing in any case.  I check it whenever I start a big project and there's been a few driver updates.

[Dankology]

10 hours ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

I don't understand though why not using the direct monitoring feature of the sound interface for the instrument recording and have the track played back regularly on top/beneath it?

 

Add whatever effects you need physically in form of pedals as you are recording, or in form of VST post production when mixing (normally I would want to have as a dry original recording as possible to work with for post production mixing).

 

How I do it.

 

 

I am using direct monitoring - as well as monitoring the bass through its amp which of course isn't subject to the minimal delay that even the direct monitoring route cannot avoid. I'm not running any effects while I record either.

 

11 hours ago, linear said:

 

 

What you need to do is a kind of loopback test, where you connect an output from the interface to an input and record sound from an existing track into a new track.  If all is well the tracks will line up perfectly.  Otherwise, you can measure how much it is out by, and Ableton has a special place in the settings where you can correct for this.  It's not Delay Compensation in Ableton btw - that's a per track setting for a different type of latency issue.

 

 

 

I've looked into Reaper's settings and it is currently using the driver's reported latency with no manual offset. The following screenshot shows two tracks (recorded completely separately) the top one is the click as recorded back through a room mic (only the sound on "one" was loud enough to show in the waveform) and the lower track is me hitting four notes to the bar, early every time.

 

I think that this shows that the error, such as it is, lies with me...

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Dankology

[Dad3353]

1 hour ago, Dankology said:

...four notes to the bar, early every time.

 

I think that this shows that the error, such as it is, lies with me...

 

I'd agree, adding that it would appear that you're playing slightly faster than the tempo (each of those bass notes creeps forward a tiny bit more each time...). I wouldn't worry about the click, though, as it is, itself, behind the beat as shown by the bar lines (OK, it's not really a 'bar' as such, just the time divisions for the 4/4 beat but... Whatever...). You won't be able to match that up to the click, as your notes don't match up to the 120 bpm. Does it matter..? Over the length of a song, if this was continued, you'd be seriously 'out' after a short while. As that doesn't seem to be the case (or you'd have noticed, along with your bandmates..!), I'd say it's all fine, hunky-dory and just dandy. You could try, as an exercise, lining it all up, just to see (hear..?) if there's any difference; I suspect that, if there was, it'd sound worse. If it's 'rock' you're playing, just carry on; it's fine. Really. If that's your only issue, you're doing OK. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Dad3353

[BigRedX]

When you are actually recording are you playing to the click or the drums?

 

You should be playing to the drums, because when the final mix is being made that is what your listeners will be hearing, not the click. As I said previously, when I have used a click only the drummer hears and plays to it. All the other musicians follow the drummer. That way the click sets the tempo and the band plays to the drummer just as though the click wasn't there.

 

It's also weird that the click appears to fade in and is very long in duration (for a click). The click my band use doesn't look anything like that. Here's a bar and a beat of it to a similar scale:

 

To me there is something very wrong going on with the whole recording process...

 

BTW what genre of music is it? Im wondering if Abelton is the correct choice of DAW for what you are doing?

Edited March 26, 2023 by BigRedX

[Dad3353]

7 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

...It's also weird that the click appears to fade in and is very long in duration (for a click)...

 

To me there is something very wrong going on with the whole recording process...

 

As explained, the 'click' seems to be present for the whole band, and the track we see is what the room mic picked up on the 'One' beat. It's suspect, and very unusual for recording. That's why I asked if we could hear the issue, not just see the DAW screenshot. We're not seeing a typical DAW recording at all. 

[msb]

Metronomes and click tracks are highly over rated.

Never found one that could keep up with me.

[Baloney Balderdash]

25 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

As explained, the 'click' seems to be present for the whole band, and the track we see is what the room mic picked up on the 'One' beat. It's suspect, and very unusual for recording. That's why I asked if we could hear the issue, not just see the DAW screenshot. We're not seeing a typical DAW recording at all. 

I am pretty certain you misunderstood that.

 

This was referring to a separate test track that OP recorded after the recording he is talking about in his OP.

 

You are right though, if it really was as you seem to believe is the case here it would be rather absurd.

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Dad3353 said:

 

As explained, the 'click' seems to be present for the whole band, and the track we see is what the room mic picked up on the 'One' beat. It's suspect, and very unusual for recording. That's why I asked if we could hear the issue, not just see the DAW screenshot. We're not seeing a typical DAW recording at all. 

 

If the click has already been recorded, then there should be a track for it that we should be able to see, and we shouldn't have to rely on a room recording of it for a timing reference.

 

As I said there's something not right about the whole situation.

Edited March 26, 2023 by BigRedX

[Baloney Balderdash]

8 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

If the click has already been recorded, then there should be a track for it that we should be able to see, and we should have to rely on a room recording of it for a timing reference.

 

As I said there's something not right about the whole situation.

 

37 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

I am pretty certain you misunderstood that.

 

This was referring to a separate test track that OP recorded after the recording he is talking about in his OP (edit!: set up this way specifically in order to be able to test the issue explained in the OP, and whether it was a technical problem or human error).

 

You are right though, if it really was as you seem to believe is the case here it would be rather absurd.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[Dankology]

Lots to clear up here...

 

1) I'm using Reaper to record these tracks (the earlier mention of Ableton was because I had noticed the same issue there - on a Mac, using a different interface)

 

2) the screenshot is of a test track recorded in my spare room. I played Reaper's internal metronome through the monitors and the sound it made was picked up by a mic that I had left approximately a foot above the floor in an untreated room containing three guitars, a mandolin, a bouzouki and a drum kit - I'm pretty sure the shape of the wave form reflects the resonances in the room. To be fair I was only doing this to look at the onset of the click sound, hence the less than perfect recording set up

 

3) I was definitely speeding up when I recorded that quick test track but when I've been playing more carefully the effect is more consistently just ahead of the beat

 

4) when recording the songs themselves I/we record to the drum tracks with the click/metronome muted. When I demo new songs on my own I tend to play to a simple drum loop rather than a bare click

 

I am grateful for the continuing input but I'm almost 100% certain that this is not due to the recording set up - I'm going to spend some time playing to a metronome and loops while trying to relax. As has been mentioned above, pushing the beat a little may well be appropriate for our music but I would like to have the ability to not do it from time to time too...

[linear]

52 minutes ago, Dankology said:

Lots to clear up here...

 

1) I'm using Reaper to record these tracks (the earlier mention of Ableton was because I had noticed the same issue there - on a Mac, using a different interface)

 

Ah, I see.  Same issue with two different interfaces would, with near certainty, rule out the particular driver issue I was talking about earlier.  Apologies for sending this in what was perhaps an unhelpful direction.

[Dankology]

3 minutes ago, linear said:

 

Ah, I see.  Same issue with two different interfaces would, with near certainty, rule out the particular driver issue I was talking about earlier.  Apologies for sending this in what was perhaps an unhelpful direction.

 

No apologies needed! I'm grateful for all the help and advice and certainly wasn't aware of the latency compensation settings before you pointed me that way.

[Chaddy]

I record with one ear out of the sound so I can hear the natural sound of the strings, the other is a pre click and just feeling comfy and not stressed on the take. 
Take the the time to warm up, have some test tracks with a click on that you can noodle about to get your ear/hand/head in the right frame of mind. 

Something about the record button really does annoy me, and then you end up either playing un-natural or super-natural and do stuff you wouldn't normally do so it feels like wearing someone else's underwear for the lack of a better term. 

The only thing to remember is you can't get any worse! -  I do think any latency can be a pain so I play one out of ear, tap the foot if you have to! and just pretend its a jam or change your mix so you can hear kick/snare/click more pronounced if that works for you. 

I'm currently doing Lamb of God - Laid to Rest for YT and it was a utter utter P.I.T.A   
 

[Nail Soup]

5 hours ago, Chaddy said:

Something about the record button .....

...feels like wearing someone else's underwear

You mean it's exciting?

[Downunderwonder]

On 26/03/2023 at 23:09, Dankology said:

 

 

I am using direct monitoring - as well as monitoring the bass through its amp which of course isn't subject to the minimal delay that even the direct monitoring route cannot avoid. I'm not running any effects while I record either.

 

 

I've looked into Reaper's settings and it is currently using the driver's reported latency with no manual offset. The following screenshot shows two tracks (recorded completely separately) the top one is the click as recorded back through a room mic (only the sound on "one" was loud enough to show in the waveform) and the lower track is me hitting four notes to the bar, early every time.

 

I think that this shows that the error, such as it is, lies with me...

 

 

Has to be the process as it gets reported. You couldn't play that far ahead if you tried!