Theory from Carol Kaye

[funkle]

Thanks guys, glad to be of some help.

Phil, there are tons of other subs out there based on altering dom 7th chords - e.g. G7 could be thought of as G7b9, then play Ab dim over the top of that. All of the notes are the same; it's a wonderful sub on the way to a resolution (which is what V7 chords usually do).

[G7b9 implies minor key harmony though, so you may wish to use your ears to see if it fits your situation. But it's a wonderful sound to my ears.]

Neither Carol nor Jeff talked to me about modes. I might ask Jeff that question specifically. But he always emphasised to me it was about chords. Now, as to what chords Jeff is substituting......that's a whole different story. He takes that to a whole other level, and the speed....

As a very simple example (shows you how no0bie I am, relatively), one of my new things I love doing to ii - V's is something I picked up from transcribing one of Jeff's solos. Instead of playing ii - V7, I've started to do IV - V7 instead. Both are strong resolutions, but subbing IV for ii sounds absolutely beautiful to me. Really really simple, but just wonderful. Give it a whirl and let me know what you think.

Bilbo, I'm not surprised that there's nothing here that's new - you've been playing a good long time, it's just us newbies to the game who still have to get lot of this down. But I agree having a label for something makes it easier to think about.

For me, that's kind of where Carol Kaye lacked a little - she's a player, absolutely no doubt, and she speaks the language of jazz. But sometimes I feel it's hard to understand all of what she says - once I filled in some more theory/written harmony at Jeff's school, my understanding opened up a great deal. Jeff may say it with fancier terminology, but essentially Jeff and Carol say many of the same things. Although Jeff plays at a much higher level, and probably has more to say in the longer run than Carol. But without Carol, I wouldn't have known to go hunting for Jeff....

Pete

[Bilbo]

[quote name='funkle' post='476807' date='May 1 2009, 10:56 AM']without Carol, I wouldn't have known to go hunting for Jeff....[/quote]

Good point. When you are learning, sometimes you have to go through simpler stuff to get to the richer veins. That's why we all get into jazz in the end.

Because its better.

[funkle]

I should add here - I have all of Carol Kaye's books, and her DVD on playing jazz too. They are good, but having a better understanding of harmony helps a lot, and I can understand better what Carol means now when I have some different ways of framing it.

That said, I can't quite work out why Abmaj (Ab C Eb G) over G7#5#9 (G B D# F A#) works. I'm just on the way out the door to a wedding, so I'll think more on it later. I suspect it is related to the tensions available to both G7#5#9 and Abmaj.

Pete

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='476871' date='May 1 2009, 11:54 AM']When you are learning, sometimes you have to go through simpler stuff to get to the richer veins. That's why we all get into jazz in the end.

Because its better.[/quote]



There's a lot of useful stuff when it comes to harmony that just doesn't exist in other genres, except where it's been borrowed from jazz. Rhythmically though, jazz borrows from everything else.

[The Funk]

[quote name='funkle' post='476877' date='May 1 2009, 11:59 AM']That said, I can't quite work out why Abmaj (Ab C Eb G) over G7#5#9 (G B D# F A#) works. I'm just on the way out the door to a wedding, so I'll think more on it later. I suspect it is related to the tensions available to both G7#5#9 and Abmaj.[/quote]

Would it help if you think of Ab maj as G# maj?

[philwood]

The only reason I stumbled across that was from listening to Martin Taylor the great Jazz guitarist, i noticed he plays a 7#5#9 and immediately after plays a 7#5b9 a heck of alot so i havent a clue why it works. Ab = b9 / C = 11 (natural tension) / Eb = #5 / G = Root / Bb = #9 correct me if im wrong.