Escalating Prices

[OliverBlackman]

Not wanting to derail the thread from B*****,  Covid or Russia, but Fender and MM upped their prices before these took effect. I remember when the top fender bass was AM Dlx and they cost around £1.2k new. Then they released the elite and it a similar bass for £2k. My  MM stingray was around £1k new in 2007 but it was 2012ish that the price doubled. Warwick’s move to the team build and master build series also saw prices double and I remember that was only a few years later

Edited April 1, 2023 by OliverBlackman

[tegs07]

44 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

Not wanting to derail the thread from B*****,  Covid or Russia, but Fender and MM upped their prices before these took effect. I remember when the top fender bass was AM Dlx and they cost around £1.2k new. Then they released the elite and it a similar bass for £2k. My  MM stingray was around £1k new in 2007 but it was 2012ish that the price doubled. Warwick’s move to the team build and master build series also saw prices double and I remember that was only a few years later

So are you saying that prior to central banks massive liquidity injection to rescue the financial system in 2008, followed by massive increase in commercial banks lending as the housing market started its next bubble phase in roughly 2011 onwards there was a corresponding rise in the price of things but interest rates were kept at near zero?

 

I’ve been preaching that message for a while. This is basic economics. Massively increase the money supply and keep rates at near zero for a couple of decades and there will be huge consequences. We are now experiencing them.

 

Edit. As this topic is predominantly about USA products I have replaced the graph with a US one. Same pattern. If anyone is interested though check out positivemoney.org they are some of the good guys.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by tegs07

[ped]

Come on guys there’s normally at least one graph by now

[tegs07]

3 minutes ago, ped said:

Come on guys there’s normally at least one graph by now

👆😂

[Ralf1e]

29 minutes ago, ped said:

Come on guys there’s normally at least one graph by now

It's usually printed by

Van, der graph generator

[tegs07]

23 minutes ago, Ralf1e said:

It's usually printed by

Van, der graph generator

A picture tells a thousand words and all that. I’m really not sure what is so controversial about the fact that there has been a massive rise in public and private borrowing over the last two decades and interest rates have been far below their historical average. It seems fairly basic economics to me that:

a) a huge increase in borrowed money would mean prices would increase.

b) At some stage interest rates would rise and the debt would need to be paid back at a higher cost than it was borrowed for.

c) this would cause big problems.

d) anything that could be done to slow down the rate of interest rate rises should have been done well in advance. Slamming the brakes on was never going to be smooth.

 

[Ralf1e]

People reach for the card instead of the calculator when making a purchase. They have no idea what the true (i.e compound interest rate) is on what they are borrowing.

Banks have been paying us almost no interest on what we have in our accounts and yet they are lending it back to credit card holders at **% per month not year per month

Unpaid balances are added to the pot and the interest then becomes compound.

We have been debt free for some years whilst we know of many who are paying high rates on handfuls of cards with little chance to escape that debt trap.

Years ago money could only be printed to the value of the gold held by a country or bank or whatever.

They moved the goal posts on that and now print out whatever they can get away with. There is nothing to back it up. It is chasing the wind.

Countries without their own manufacturing in place are in trouble unless they find ways to manipulate a false economy.

[tegs07]

10 minutes ago, Ralf1e said:

People reach for the card instead of the calculator when making a purchase. They have no idea what the true (i.e compound interest rate) is on what they are borrowing.

Banks have been paying us almost no interest on what we have in our accounts and yet they are lending it back to credit card holders at **% per month not year per month

Unpaid balances are added to the pot and the interest then becomes compound.

We have been debt free for some years whilst we know of many who are paying high rates on handfuls of cards with little chance to escape that debt trap.

Years ago money could only be printed to the value of the gold held by a country or bank or whatever.

They moved the goal posts on that and now print out whatever they can get away with. There is nothing to back it up. It is chasing the wind.

Countries without their own manufacturing in place are in trouble unless they find ways to manipulate a false economy.

Well the USA in particular got away with it for years due to the petrodollar (world reserve currency). They could buy commodities in $, get the host countries to re-invest the profits in US treasuries then print and debase the currency at will as it wasn’t backed by anything substantial (gold). These IOUs on maturity were later worth less. This ruse is all but over with the BRICs moving away from the $.

 

This won’t help inflation or price increases one bit.

 

Banks haven’t needed to pay interest. Deposits are not required in the same way when central banks are offering QE liquidity at rock bottom rates.

 

As for manufacturing well that takes energy and the gas and oil is largely imported and though the prices have stabilised they are still historically high. This is not good for inflation.

 

I think people sense that they are being scammed but don’t quite understand by who.

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by tegs07

[Ralf1e]

Just came up on F Book

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1395468827875343&id=100022367176234

Bit of humour to ease the tension🤣

[neepheid]

11 minutes ago, Ralf1e said:

Just came up on F Book

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1395468827875343&id=100022367176234

Bit of humour to ease the tension🤣

 

Doesn't work for me (the link, not the humour which I haven't even got as far as receiving)

[Dad3353]

4 hours ago, tegs07 said:

Well the USA in particular got away with it for years due to the petrodollar (world reserve currency). They could buy commodities in $, get the host countries to re-invest the profits in US treasuries then print and debase the currency at will as it wasn’t backed by anything substantial (gold). These IOUs on maturity were later worth less. This ruse is all but over with the BRICs moving away from the $.

 

This won’t help inflation or price increases one bit.

 

Banks haven’t needed to pay interest. Deposits are not required in the same way when central banks are offering QE liquidity at rock bottom rates.

 

As for manufacturing well that takes energy and the gas and oil is largely imported and though the prices have stabilised they are still historically high. This is not good for inflation.

 

I think people sense that they are being scammed but don’t quite understand by whom.

 

 

Fixed. 

[tegs07]

13 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

Fixed. 

nah it was right the first time. never trusted that roger daltry fella.

[Misdee]

On 29/03/2023 at 10:34, Rich said:

 

In the late 80s, I saw a pre EB Ray advertised for £250. I ummed and ahhed and walked away. *slaps self very hard*

I bought a mint 1982/3 Stingray in 1989 for £340. The chap even brought it round to my house for me. The Bass Centre at Wapping had a selection of used Stingrays for £495 a pop for a typical example. You could buy a new Wal for about  £800. I had girls who fancied me and a bright future to look forward to. If anyone invents a time machine, please let me know.

[Misdee]

11 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

Not wanting to derail the thread from B*****,  Covid or Russia, but Fender and MM upped their prices before these took effect. I remember when the top fender bass was AM Dlx and they cost around £1.2k new. Then they released the elite and it a similar bass for £2k. My  MM stingray was around £1k new in 2007 but it was 2012ish that the price doubled. Warwick’s move to the team build and master build series also saw prices double and I remember that was only a few years later

To be fair , Warwick are a special case. For a long time now they have been trying make their basses more valuable by increasing the prices. Their reasoning is that if they charge the same as Fodera or Wal ect then that will confer equal status on the instruments they produce. 

 

 

[Rich]

24 minutes ago, Misdee said:

I bought a mint 1982/3 Stingray in 1989 for £340. The chap even brought it round to my house for me. The Bass Centre at Wapping had a selection of used Stingrays for £495 a pop for a typical example. You could buy a new Wal for about  £800. I had girls who fancied me and a bright future to look forward to. If anyone invents a time machine, please let me know.

If at any point in the future I was to invent a time machine, I would already have a house full of Wals and 60s Fenders and a barn full of mint RS2000s. 

[CookPassBabtridge]

14 hours ago, Misdee said:

To be fair , Warwick are a special case. For a long time now they have been trying make their basses more valuable by increasing the prices. Their reasoning is that if they charge the same as Fodera or Wal ect then that will confer equal status on the instruments they produce. 

 

 

Warwick prices in particular have gone crazy. I swear a couple of years ago you could buy a Bubinga GPS Corvette for £900, they’re now around £1800 - literally doubled. Surely they (and others) are at risk of pricing themselves out of the market. Or maybe the economics of selling fewer basses for more money is slightly better for them. Having said that I thought the whole point of the investment in that large factory of theirs was to increase output. All very confusing. 

[Rayman]

Yep, I was looking at another Warwick, but there was just no way on earth I could afford one, so I went down the Reverend road instead. Reverend seem to be keeping their prices sensible for now. 

[tegs07]

6 minutes ago, Rayman said:

Yep, I was looking at another Warwick, but there was just no way on earth I could afford one, so I went down the Reverend road instead. Reverend seem to be keeping their prices sensible for now. 

I’m pretty sure Reverend instruments are made in South Korea where labour is cheaper ( and if squid game or parasite are indicative inequality fairly rife).  It’s not looking great for US or European manufacturing if inflation continues on its current trajectory.

[neepheid]

6 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

I’m pretty sure Reverend instruments are made in South Korea where labour is cheaper ( and if squid game or parasite are indicative inequality fairly rife).  It’s not looking great for US or European manufacturing if inflation continues on its current trajectory.

 

They are, specifically by Mirr Music.

 

While far Eastern production keeps inexorably being sucked into a vortex between China and Indonesia, are instruments made in South Korea now being viewed through the same rose-tinted spectacles that Japanese production has been for many years now?  There's a rose-tinted tax on that...

[CookPassBabtridge]

27 minutes ago, Rayman said:

Yep, I was looking at another Warwick, but there was just no way on earth I could afford one, so I went down the Reverend road instead. Reverend seem to be keeping their prices sensible for now. 

I’ve just looked them up, the Triad looks like an interesting proposition so I’m going to check it out further. Cheers for the tip! 

[Rayman]

6 hours ago, CookPassBabtridge said:

I’ve just looked them up, the Triad looks like an interesting proposition so I’m going to check it out further. Cheers for the tip! 

You’re welcome 

 

They’re really superb, and really sensibly priced, at least for now, and yes, made Korea by Mirr. I think Chapman were made there, Italia are definitely made there.  

[TheGreek]

I looked at one of those cheap basses sites - AliExpress IIRC - and there was an Alembic SC copy for a couple of hundred quid - looked very enticing.

 

HOWEVER I know that it's most likely a POS - however there will be would-be players seeing these and thinking that they've grabbed a bargain, only to find that the "bargain" they thought they were getting is rubbish at best, virtually unplayable at worst. 

 

This will demoralise the new players, thinking that they have little or no ability, and chuck the towel in. Alternatively they will persevere for a while, make little or no gains and eventually chuck the towel in. 

 

When money is tight people will look for less expensive alternatives - in this case though it will drive people away from making music and stop any future spending in the instrument market. Music isn't about elitism but by pushing prices up companies will make it so - at least from the point of sales of new instruments. Inadvertently music companies may cause their own demise.

 

We may find that in the future instruments sales will be self build kits, "custom builds" by luthiers or used instruments. I've said this many times - at the moment it's pretty difficult to find a badly built bass, however if the market ends up being flooded with shite, poorly built instruments, this may not continue to be true.

 

We, on the other hand, who suffer from GAS and currently hoard the quality items, may in the end save the second hand Bass guitar market.

 

Big manufacturers beware - you may find that the marketing strategy of selling high backfires and instead fuels the used "vintage" instrument market.