Music Man BFR Stingray Retro 76

[Misdee]

On 31/03/2023 at 13:43, Musicman20 said:

A beautiful bass but insane prices. The UK in particular is reaching insanity with it's pricing.

 

Import Sterlings are now reaching £1500!

 

https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/search/?Query=musicman+bass

 

It is worth considering that only 8  ish years ago you could get a USA Musicman Bongo HH for £1400-1500, a Stingray H for £1200-1400 and a Classic Stingray H for £1500.

 

At some point surely people just WILL NOT be able buy.

 

Fender and Gibson are doing the same. 

The thing about the guitar trade is, if what you have to sell is sufficiently enticing, someone will buy it. The trick is to anticipate what it is that will prize open people's wallets. Expensive instruments can be much easier to sell than mid-priced ones, providing you have the right thing to sell.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Misdee

[Misdee]

On 30/03/2023 at 18:51, Beedster said:

No Fender/EBMM/Ric mass-produced bass is worth more than £1500 new 

Are these really mass-produced though? The essential difference between EBMM and Rickenbacker and a lot of handmade basses is that EBMM and Rickenbacker can afford a factory. That is not necessarily  detrimental to the value of the instruments they produce in comparison to those made in a cottage industry.

Edited April 2, 2023 by Misdee

[iconic]

From where I'm sitting that's a ridiculous amount of hard earned to drop on a mass production bass, isn't every bass hand finished.....

 

Fender Custom Shop (factory) products are just as clever, when one realises just how many thousands they produce yearly... it really dents the image of aged luthiers wearing round rimmed glasses, beared, in brown overalls, and tongue out concentration. 

 

But then over a price point bass buying is emotional not rational. Each to their own though😎

[Beedster]

11 hours ago, Misdee said:

Are these really mass-produced though? The essential difference between EBMM and Rickenbacker and a lot of handmade basses is that EBMM and Rickenbacker can afford a factory. That is not necessarily  detrimental to the value of the instruments they produce in comparison to those made in a cottage industry.

Yes they are 100% 👍

[Misdee]

3 hours ago, Beedster said:

Yes they are 100% 👍

Okay then, let me put it another way. If Fender Custom Shop can charge the kind of money they are for Team Built Precision and Jazz basses then this Stingray reissue isn't that untoward in its pricing. In U.S dollars at least, it's an affordable treat. 

[LukeFRC]

On 31/03/2023 at 19:31, Chiliwailer said:

£4200…. Damn that’s just crazy…  

 

Sad for the generation that’s coming into this whole new level of bonkers pricing on premium factory gear - GAS killer for sure, not even a 0% card would tempt me anymore at these prices. 

but equally the odd thing is a £400 Sire, or even a £150 Harley Benton is fantastic quality at the low price point. 

[Paolo85]

51 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

but equally the odd thing is a £400 Sire, or even a £150 Harley Benton is fantastic quality at the low price point. 

This. Absolutely. I think some 11 basses have passed through my house over the past year or so, the most expensive being a Sire paid £400 new. While not everything has been great, I found some gems and could not care less about gear costing £2000 plus. I believe £1000+ basses tend to have better pickups than cheap basses, maybe better fretwork. I don't exclude buying one one day (used!). But a fretjob cost £90 and a pickup upgrade cost ~£100+, light tuners cost ~£100so this should be put in perspective.

I know that for as much as I can spend, the neck will never play itself. Weigh and balance are better with mid-priced Japanese brands than with vintage looking US basses. Not interested in this MM. Not sad at all.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Paolo85

[Chiliwailer]

1 hour ago, LukeFRC said:

but equally the odd thing is a £400 Sire, or even a £150 Harley Benton is fantastic quality at the low price point. 

That’s a good point Luke. For me, in the 90s, I was a teen enjoying quality budget brands like Aria and Hohner, other good basses were around too like Yamaha and Ibanez. 
 

But I aspired to a 4001, StingRay, or vintage Fender. Even on a modest wage, I was able to get them in my 20s.
 

Just seems further out of reach now for someone in the situation I was in back then…? 

[fretmeister]

It's very amusing when someone in the UK differentiates between US rays and Non US ones by only describing one of them as "Import".

 

They are both imports for here.

[Waddo Soqable]

4 hours ago, Chiliwailer said:

That’s a good point Luke. For me, in the 90s, I was a teen enjoying quality budget brands like Aria and Hohner, other good basses were around too like Yamaha and Ibanez. 
 

But I aspired to a 4001, StingRay, or vintage Fender. Even on a modest wage, I was able to get them in my 20s.
 

Just seems further out of reach now for someone in the situation I was in back then…? 

Definately.. In my case it was late 70s early 80s.. you could get a second hand Rick or Fender P for about 200 quid and loose change, whilst it was a fair bit of dosh it was do-able.. I got my first Stingray as a swap for a Kramer Ali neck thing as I recall. 

[drTStingray]

12 hours ago, Beedster said:

Yes they are 100% 👍

Really - mass produced to me smacks of robots and machines making and fitting most of the parts together on a production line with little human input (rather like a car). And what do you call ‘mass’ in terms of volume?

 

To me, a run of 100 instruments put together from non standard parts, with levels of skilled human input to various elements, but in a factory, is not ‘mass’ production. As others have said, it’s also not cottage industry - however I’d wager  if you attempted to select options from Fender on your Custom Shop selection something akin to this would put you immediately into Master Built territory, with prices well in excess of what’s being asked here. 

 

I personally don’t get the analogy with cheaper import instruments - of course you can buy a serviceable cheapo entry level instrument (copy of a more expensive one) for the low hundreds of pounds - you could in the 70s with Antoria and others. That might float some people’s boats but frankly, that’s not the sort of audience/demographic that basses like this are aimed at. 
 

In the same way people have bought bog standard entry level Ford Capris, for instance, in the 70s, others (probably enthusiasts) bought the 3 litre version at a vast mark up - they both functioned perfectly well as cars, but the most expensive gave the owner a lot of added value (and performance) the owner of the cheapo one likely couldn’t afford. But were enabled to enter the market by Ford offering an entry level sporty looking vehicle. You can substitute any type of car (including modern day) in this analogy), or many bass guitars. 
 

Any argument that the more expensive one was not worth extra money because the cheapo one did the job was so much pi**ing in the wind (or even the type of argument young boys engaged in talking about their father’s cars in the school playground). 
 

I can understand guys buying entry level (perhaps student) guitars where they might be newbies to playing an instrument - however I do find it a bit odd when long standing players buy cheapo instruments with the idea they’re somehow getting a bargain and demonstrating a post rationing, early post war austerity mentality (I’ve come across a lot of enthusiast guitar players like this - who then buy a hard case for their entry level instrument which then scratches up the inside of their higher end Mercedes cars when they take it out somewhere). Equally, I find it even odder when those people moan about higher end instrument prices as being not worth it. 
 

These are really nice basses in my view, and in a similar way to some CS reissue instruments, probably appeal to people like me who prefer new pristine instruments rather than playing something that cost a small fortune but looks like it needs a good paint job, amongst other things!! 

Edited April 3, 2023 by drTStingray

[Misdee]

Prices have gone up and they're not going to go down again. That is the new reality, I'm sorry to say. 😟

 

EBMM and Rickenbacker are what I would describe as production guitars, rather than mass produced instruments. I've had four brand new EBMM basses over the years and they all compared very well in most respects with good quality custom made boutique basses I have had. My basses were all standard models, not BFR.

 

Yes, the new prices are steep, but if you want/ need a new Music Man bass what is the alternative? In the final analysis EBMM basses are probably overpriced by about 20 percent in the UK market place. I would venture that Fenders are overvalued by about the same amount. That's the premium we are paying for the economic situation in the USA and UK. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by Misdee

[Paolo85]

14 hours ago, drTStingray said:

. 

 

I personally don’t get the analogy with cheaper import instruments - of course you can buy a serviceable cheapo entry level instrument (copy of a more expensive one) for the low hundreds of pounds - you could in the 70s with Antoria and others. That might float some people’s boats but frankly, that’s not the sort of audience/demographic that basses like this are aimed at. 
 

In the same way people have bought bog standard entry level Ford Capris, for instance, in the 70s, others (probably enthusiasts) bought the 3 litre version at a vast mark up - they both functioned perfectly well as cars, but the most expensive gave the owner a lot of added value (and performance) the owner of the cheapo one likely couldn’t afford. But were enabled to enter the market by Ford offering an entry level sporty looking vehicle. You can substitute any type of car (including modern day) in this analogy), or many bass guitars. 
 

Any argument that the more expensive one was not worth extra money because the cheapo one did the job was so much pi**ing in the wind (or even the type of argument young boys engaged in talking about their father’s cars in the school playground). 
 

I can understand guys buying entry level (perhaps student) guitars where they might be newbies to playing an instrument - however I do find it a bit odd when long standing players buy cheapo instruments with the idea they’re somehow getting a bargain and demonstrating a post rationing, early post war austerity mentality (I’ve come across a lot of enthusiast guitar players like this - who then buy a hard case for their entry level instrument which then scratches up the inside of their higher end Mercedes cars when they take it out somewhere). Equally, I find it even odder when those people moan about higher end instrument prices as being not worth it. 
 

 

This is a very good point and it is certainly the case that if somebody wants THAT bass and can afford it, it is certainly worth it for them. Jost a couple of notes:

I don't think anybody said that £400 Sire is the same as a Stingray. But, when people say these are tough times because Stingrays and US fenders are expensive, well.. not really. These are good times and nobody should be sad.

As for being worth it, I totally agree that those Stingrays could be worth it to somebody. I guess a point of discussion is: in what way they are worth the money?

You have made an analogy with cars there. The same car but with different specs. But there are many other possible analogies that could be made by other people.

Are £4000 basses worth it the way a rolex is worth more than an average good watch (no discernible improvements in tracking the time, just the former looks better to the buyer and confers status)?

Are they worth it the way a sports car is better than any fully functioning, safe, not particularly noisy car with aircon (for most application they are the same, in some conditions in which 90% of the buyers are not expected to ever find themselves could really make a difference. However, for everyday use one may actually find that the sports car is not even better).

Are they worth it the way a car with Homer Simpson "speedholes" is better than one without (something has been done but does not make a difference)?

And so on...

I don't know the answer. I am pretty convinced that a £4000 bas does not make you go faster or play cleaner than a cheaper bass chosen with a neck shape that subjectively works well and has had a good fret job. As for the sound, I am pretty sure that above a certain level it becomes a matter of personal taste (which does not mean they are all the same, but maybe it happens that some £1000 basses are as good, just different). But maybe I am wrong. I understand Fender Custom Shop tests the wood of the body and the neck to ensure they resonate well together. As you know, to some people's ears they may as well use poplar poplar and would sound the same.

I don't know who's right. I don't know most things as I never tried a £4000 bass. I have only tried £1000-£1500 basses max and found them no better than carefully selected and modded cheap basses with slight modifications. Maybe there is an inversion in the law of diminishing returns at £4000. I do not mean this ironically. Maybe.

 

[StingRayBoy42]

That's really lovely, but four grand?!

One for the "Look how much money I've got" types I think.

[matbard]

As I dreamed that bass for years, I'm more than ready to put my £££ into it...

...but I live in Italy, and here in Europe the bass is available no more.

Seems that a lot of people have four grand for a bass

[funkle]

Just do what I did. Make your own.

 

 

[Waddo Soqable]

21 minutes ago, funkle said:

Just do what I did. Make your own.

 

 

I'm kind of making one.

I got ( disassembled in bits) a MM US Sub which, as I'm sure you know, is effectively an American made Stingray with a slab body and crappy textured paint, and have currently as an experiment stuck a far east made Sub maple neck on it, ( jazz nut width as mentioned in the vid ) 

.. the neck that came with it I wasn't overly keen on, didn't like the width, profile, or anything really. Plus the crappy paint finish was damaged ( which I've now stripped btw).. I much prefer maple necks over r/w too, and the sterling Sub neck came up on the forum recently at a good price, so I snagged it for the purpose. 

Something I did find was that the neck's heel is about 3mm deeper than the original, and as a temp. bodge to try it, I've put shims under the bridge saddles, otherwise the saddle grub screws would be virtually out of their holes. 

If I go with this neck I'll plane the required amount off the bottom of the heel to the same dimensions as the original neck. I've strung it up and will play with it for a bit, and let the neck settle, if I like it I'll proceed as above. 

Obviously this version already has the pukka MM PU and pre amp so needs no further improvement in that dept. 

Here's an unfinished / work in progress rough pic.. 

[Misdee]

Looking at the background info it looks like EBMM have really tried to make this reissue as accurate as possible. The only grey area is the preamp. I don't know how close it is to the original epoxied ( Baxendale?) one , probably near enough.

 

FWIW, I played a few Stingray Classics and they were superb basses, better than any vintage Stingray I ever had my hands on in terms of sound, playability and construction. The only reason I didn't buy one is I never found a light enough example. Actually I did, but by the time I rang Bass Direct someone else had just bought it!😟 

 

A Stingray Classic would substitute perfectly well for this reissue, and I actually prefer the more generic features of the Classic. Just my personal taste, though.

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Misdee

[LukeFRC]

3 hours ago, Misdee said:

 

Looking at the background info it looks like EBMM have really tried to make this reissue as accurate as possible. The only grey area is the preamp. I don't know how close it is to the original epoxied ( Baxendale?) one , probably near enough.

 

A schematic for the original preamp is freely available on the web - if they haven’t got that bit right then something is wrong!

[drTStingray]

6 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

A schematic for the original preamp is freely available on the web - if they haven’t got that bit right then something is wrong!

But which one? There are three of four iterations. For a 1976 bass, it’s probably the first version. Im pretty sure the manufacturer has access to the correct information. They’ve also used period correct tantalum capacitors and the longer pick up pole pieces. So as stated by @Misdee they appear to have gone to some lengths to make these 100 basses absolutely period correct.

 

In the US, these basses cost significantly less than an original 76 Stingray - in this country it’s a slightly different story as we have to pay shipping and tax, the exchange rate is dreadful (one of our famous B**xit dividends) and possibly a pre EB Stingray is not as expensive as in the US on the used vintage market here.

 

In any case we’re very unlikely to get our hands on one of these basses as they all seem to be sold! 
 

Im hopeful they’ll do some more reissues in due course - I might be tempted dependent on what appears (77 in silver with white pick up cover and black pick guard would be v nice, or a natural) 

Edited April 9, 2023 by drTStingray

[LukeFRC]

1 hour ago, drTStingray said:

They’ve also used period correct tantalum capacitors

having experimented with a few pre-EB copies I made and a real '77-78 pre I think the caps do make a small difference. 
That preamp and the way it links to the pickup is an absolute masterpiece.

I now want a stingray again 

[matbard]

I found one in Sweden. It's on its trip to Italy 😄

[bassmate]

What a nice sounding bass and killer player too… Wish they‘d sell this one at a lower price (one was sold at 4.5K€ in Germany)…

 

 

[The Funk]

I’m a bit late to the party but I tried one of these yesterday in Singapore. It seems very much vintage-accurate for the first iteration of the Stingray. I have a Stingray Classic which I picked up around 5 years ago on Facebook Marketplace which does the job for me - but this is still a very cool bass.
 

It is far cheaper here in Singapore than the UK, in part because taxes are much lower, at 8% GST as opposed to 20% VAT. My friend actually put a deposit down on it (and the total here is equivalent to around £2850, not £4200).
 

For a cheaper alternative, if you get a Made in Japan Stingray EX, it will have the correct vintage-style bridge with the foam mutes. Chuck in a vintage-style 2-band EQ, like the John East for example, and then you’re basically there soundwise for a fraction of the cost.

[Rick's Fine '52]

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Edited February 11 by Rick's Fine '52
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