Is a new mass-produced bass ever worth more than £1500

[stingrayPete1977]

8 hours ago, tegs07 said:

“200,000 sq. ft. facility employs close to 1,000 employees. The new facility, located at 345 Cessna, will add hundreds of jobs to support Fender’s Custom Shop and “Made in the USA” production lines across Fender®, Gretsch®, Jackson®, Charvel®, and EVH®products”.

 

Unfortunately around 300 staff were laid off in 2022. Google suggests average US Fender salary is $56,000.

 

I would hazard a guess that the Mexican factory pays less and the Chinese and Indonesian factories way way less and produce far more instruments.

A lot bigger than musicman then.

Edited April 8, 2023 by stingrayPete1977

[Misdee]

On 08/04/2023 at 09:17, BlueMoon said:

The Dimension is a recent example. Nice bass, but Fender fan-boys just didn’t see beyond the P or J looking glass!

The Dimension was a good idea ruined by poor execution. The idea was interesting and potentially appealing to bass players but the fine details let it down. The balance of the instrument on a strap wasn't quite right and the preamp on the active models was the usual functional but uninspiring fare we have come to expect from Fender. If they are going to produce active basses they would be well advised to design or source a world class preamp to put in them. It could serve them well for years to come.

[Misdee]

On 02/04/2023 at 21:44, SteveXFR said:

 

Don't forget a lot of what we pay for a Fender is import taxes. In the US they're considerably cheaper than in the UK

True, but comparing retail prices in the UK and USA is a complicated business.

 

The USA is a low taxation economy with lower retail prices, but Americans have to pay for some things that we usually get for free at the point of contact. The fundamental question is, if you were living an equivalent life in the USA would you be more able to afford the basses you want be because they are cheaper in the shop? The answer is probably not.

[iconic]

22 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

A lot bigger than musicman then.

The Custom Shop literally exploded onto the scene, from nothing in the late 80s to pumping out 7000 plus instruments per year by '96, with plans to extend again.

 

They we're proudly proclaiming how successful this division was....until

 

... someone at Fender, a bit more commercially astute got involved, from then on Fender refused to divulge numbers. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by iconic

[Misdee]

On 03/04/2023 at 13:01, chris_b said:

 

Actually Pre-CBS Fenders had a good reputation and were highly sought after almost as soon as CBS bought the company and started to make their cuts and production changes.

 

Of course they weren't all great instruments, but the better Pre-CBS basses have mostly found their way into studio work via the A list session players. Those guys don't use any old basses. They have their pick of the best sounding basses so there must be something in the "myth". 

It's  entirely possible to mass produce quality instruments. Leo Fender came up with relatively simple designs that were robust and eminently suitable for the job. That was his genius. 

 

Also, bear in mind that Pre-CBS Fenders weren't really "mass-produced" so much as factory-made. There was still a significant degree of handmade input into each instrument.

[Sean]

I've got a 2010 second hand G&L Tribute L2000 that cost £200. It has a John East SR preamp (£100) and has used US hardware that cost £50. I fitted a Tusk nut and it's had a lot of TLC on the frets and the neck is rolled. It has some custom switching that gives it single coil options. It's effectively a custom bass that is perfect for me. It's been a keeper for the last ten years for me. There are some good instruments out there for peanuts and they can be turned into amazing instruments for very little money without the risk of a custom. You just need to kiss a lot of frogs and have some basic luthier skills.

We have choices.

 

[iconic]

21 minutes ago, Sean said:

I've got a 2010 second hand G&L Tribute L2000 that cost £200. It has a John East SR preamp (£100) and has used US hardware that cost £50. I fitted a Tusk nut and it's had a lot of TLC on the frets and the neck is rolled. It has some custom switching that gives it single coil options. It's effectively a custom bass that is perfect for me. It's been a keeper for the last ten years for me. There are some good instruments out there for peanuts and they can be turned into amazing instruments for very little money without the risk of a custom. You just need to kiss a lot of frogs and have some basic luthier skills.

We have choices.

 

I've noticed a lot of old sweats who've put the hours in, end up with a G&L, those Tributes look like both a great bass and great value😎

[Lfalex v1.1]

15 minutes ago, iconic said:

I've noticed a lot of old sweats who've put the hours in, end up with a G&L, those Tributes look like both a great bass and great value😎

 

Indeed they are. I bought a barely used SB-2 Tribute on here for a very reasonable sum of money. It's great. 

 

I then proved that I'm utterly mad by spending more than £1500 on a second hand mass-produced instrument that looks like a toilet seat and has too many strings.... but what a bass it is.

[Sean]

34 minutes ago, iconic said:

I've noticed a lot of old sweats who've put the hours in, end up with a G&L, those Tributes look like both a great bass and great value😎

They're made with good cuts of wood,  mine is two piece light Ash with fabulous patterns in the wood. The neck is plain but no more so than a standard US Fender. The quality control at that Indonesian factory is very good. With upgrades, mods and fettling they are every bit as good as mass produced high end basses at 30-40% of the price. Pups are US in G&L tributes anyway and if you make the obvious mods then you get a fantastic instrument but without the pedigree. The people dancing to my basslines have never questioned the pedigree of any of my instruments including some very early hand-built US Spectors and custom shop Fenders 😉 

The G&L mongrel is still here, the others are not. I do have an old Valenti and a Jap Yam BB and they are definitely a step up but all get used equally.

[iconic]

3 minutes ago, Sean said:

They're made with good cuts of wood,  mine is two piece light Ash with fabulous patterns in the wood. The neck is plain but no more so than a standard US Fender. The quality control at that Indonesian factory is very good. With upgrades, mods and fettling they are every bit as good as mass produced high end basses at 30-40% of the price. Pups are US in G&L tributes anyway and if you make the obvious mods then you get a fantastic instrument but without the pedigree. The people dancing to my basslines have never questioned the pedigree of any of my instruments including some very early hand-built US Spectors and custom shop Fenders 😉 

The G&L mongrel is still here, the others are not. I do have an old Valenti and a Jap Yam BB and they are definitely a step up but all get used equally.

Pretty sure Tributes are built by Cor Tek (Cort) which is very a good choice of manufacturer for out sourcing. 

[Sean]

A very renowned builder in Derbyshire that fitted the preamp and did the wiring said that the quality is way beyond what we could expect for the price.

5 minutes ago, iconic said:

Pretty sure Tributes are built by Cor Tek (Cort) which is very a good choice of manufacturer for out sourcing. 

 

[kodiakblair]

On 08/04/2023 at 12:18, tegs07 said:

Google suggests average US Fender salary is $56,000.

Lazy research on Googles part 😄

 

Fender careers do list $56k as top whack at Corona but the small print tells applicants that's its unlikely they'll receive it,  screen grab is from today's 'factory floor' vacancy page. 

Rate for 'guitar inspector' is lower, $26.6k to $48.9k.

 

$18.50 to $20 per hour might appear great compared to the $6 earned by Chinese factory workers but loses the glamour when you consider cost of living.

Average costs in the USA are between 75% and 80% more expensive than even places Shenzhen.

 

 

[tegs07]

31 minutes ago, kodiakblair said:

Lazy research on Googles part 😄

 

Fender careers do list $56k as top whack at Corona but the small print tells applicants that's its unlikely they'll receive it,  screen grab is from today's 'factory floor' vacancy page. 

Rate for 'guitar inspector' is lower, $26.6k to $48.9k.

 

$18.50 to $20 per hour might appear great compared to the $6 earned by Chinese factory workers but loses the glamour when you consider cost of living.

Average costs in the USA are between 75% and 80% more expensive than even places Shenzhen.

 

 

Not really. It’s an average. Doesn’t say if mode, mean or median. I would think your estimate of $20 an hour would probably be about right for a factory worker. Bearing in mind labour costs are the main reason USA basses are more expensive. It’s a big reason why nobody wants to pay for them.

 

It’s all well and good supporting pay rises, but if people won’t accept the costs involved in the end products and services then it doesn’t look promising for the workforce. I would guess this is a big reason 300 were sacked in 2022. Corporate greed is only one factor. Consumer choice is the other issue. Since GATT and later WTO agreements western manufacturers have a tough time making products that can compete with labour costs in other countries.

Edited April 10, 2023 by tegs07

[kodiakblair]

2 hours ago, tegs07 said:

Bearing in mind labour costs are the main reason USA basses are more expensive. It’s a big reason why nobody wants to pay for them.

Are USA labour costs  high when you look at the big picture ?

 

When FMIC had 360 staff they were knocking out 360 units per day. Zhunyi Shenqu are an Ibanez builder in China, 600 staff producing 600 units per day.

The Cort and Samick factories in Indonesia have similar ratios of workers-guitars/basses. Roughly 1 instrument per staff per shift.

 

$200 labour + $200 parts/materials from a $1500 - $1800 makes for very happy investors.

 

Last time I looked G&L were paying $19, which fits nicely towards their $2k average retail.

 

EBMM buck the trend, their going rate is $16.50 against an average $2500 to $2900 retail.

 

 

 

Most US production line instruments are expensive because the bosses know Americans will pay the price.

[tegs07]

24 minutes ago, kodiakblair said:

Are USA labour costs  high when you look at the big picture ?

 

When FMIC had 360 staff they were knocking out 360 units per day. Zhunyi Shenqu are an Ibanez builder in China, 600 staff producing 600 units per day.

The Cort and Samick factories in Indonesia have similar ratios of workers-guitars/basses. Roughly 1 instrument per staff per shift.

 

$200 labour + $200 parts/materials from a $1500 - $1800 makes for very happy investors.

 

Last time I looked G&L were paying $19, which fits nicely towards their $2k average retail.

 

EBMM buck the trend, their going rate is $16.50 against an average $2500 to $2900 retail.

 

 

 

Most US production line instruments are expensive because the bosses know Americans will pay the price.

Personally I don’t think US basses are expensive, particularly from a historical perspective. They are just expensive when compared to instruments produced in low wage countries that don’t have to factor in workers rights such as health and safety, pensions etc.

 

Economies of scale come into play as well. Ernie Ball produce far less instruments than Fender.

Edited April 10, 2023 by tegs07

[Dad3353]

4 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Personally I don’t think US basses are expensive, particularly from a historical perspective. They are just expensive when compared to instruments produced in low wage countries that don’t have to factor in workers rights such as health and safety, pensions etc.

 

I believe that Fender Corps employees pay for their own health insurance and pension contributions, with a '50c to the dollar' matching contribution from the Corps. I don't know if that's extremely generous in international terms; it's certainly far short of the benefits I enjoyed in almost all the French or UK companies I worked for. 

[tegs07]

5 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

 

I believe that Fender Corps employees pay for their own health insurance and pension contributions, with a '50c to the dollar' matching contribution from the Corps. I don't know if that's extremely generous in international terms; it's certainly far short of the benefits I enjoyed in almost all the French or UK companies I worked for. 

Huzzah for European socialism. I would not say for one moment I prefer the US economic model!

Give me a higher tax, more public services model anytime. I’m just relaying a simple point that the labour costs add to the price of the US instruments and those costs are increasing.

Edited April 10, 2023 by tegs07

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, tegs07 said:

Personally I don’t think US basses are expensive, particularly from a historical perspective. They are just expensive when compared to instruments produced in low wage countries that don’t have to factor in workers rights such as health and safety, pensions etc.

 

US workers don't get to factor those in, whereas I would imagine that Chinese workers do get health and pensions, although I suspect average wages are lower.

[neepheid]

21 hours ago, iconic said:

I've noticed a lot of old sweats who've put the hours in, end up with a G&L, those Tributes look like both a great bass and great value😎

 

You rang?

[tegs07]

7 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

US workers don't get to factor those in, whereas I would imagine that Chinese workers do get health and pensions, although I suspect average wages are lower.

Yako Musical Instruments Company makes the Chinese produced Fenders I think. I have no idea what the working conditions or pensions are like but I would hazard a guess that offshore production with a 3rd party is cheaper and more transient than being employed directly by Fender in the USA. 

 

With the advent of CNC technology labour is the biggest cost involved in production. If the price of labour increases then I would expect the price of the finished product to increase as well.

[Woodinblack]

6 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

Yako Musical Instruments Company makes the Chinese produced Fenders I think. I have no idea what the working conditions or pensions are like but I would hazard a guess that offshore production with a 3rd party is cheaper and more transient than being employed directly by Fender in the USA. 

 

I also know nothing about chinese working conditions, although I do know American ones, which has 'At Will' employment, so you can be kicked out (or leave) for any reason at any time.  I don't know if fender do or not.. Looking at glassdoor seems like the usual, good work, poor management.

 

 

 

[stingrayPete1977]

21 hours ago, iconic said:

Pretty sure Tributes are built by Cor Tek (Cort) which is very a good choice of manufacturer for out sourcing. 

There was a lot of stigma regarding the working conditions a few years ago but I've not heard much lately, it's that still a thing?

[kodiakblair]

5 hours ago, tegs07 said:

They are just expensive when compared to instruments produced in low wage countries that don’t have to factor in workers rights such as health and safety, pensions etc.

By law Chinese and Indonesian workers must have a contract after 12 weeks.

 

They're also legally entitled to severance pay, medical ,sick pay, maternity leave (also paid for a miscarriage) and paid leave for family funerals. These are benefits beyond the ken of most factory workers in the USA.

 

In truth workers' rights are pretty poor in the US and as @Woodinblackmention business actively looks for ways to avoid them. The reason Gibson moved their factory from Kalamazoo to Nashville was 'workers' rights'; Kalamazoo had a union whereas Nashville is in a non-union 'Right to Work' state.

 

3 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

There was a lot of stigma regarding the working conditions a few years ago but I've not heard much lately, it's that still a thing?

It was more than a stigma.

 

Cor Tek's 2007 closure of their Korean factories caused a major uproar. They were cleared of any 'wrongdoing' in 2012 but corruption claims lingered, the judge who cleared them was later arrested and the Korean president was impeached. Sacked workers ended up being compensated but it took 12 years. 

[tegs07]

1 hour ago, kodiakblair said:

By law Chinese and Indonesian workers must have a contract after 12 weeks.

 

They're also legally entitled to severance pay, medical ,sick pay, maternity leave (also paid for a miscarriage) and paid leave for family funerals. These are benefits beyond the ken of most factory workers in the USA.

 

In truth workers' rights are pretty poor in the US and as @Woodinblackmention business actively looks for ways to avoid them. The reason Gibson moved their factory from Kalamazoo to Nashville was 'workers' rights'; Kalamazoo had a union whereas Nashville is in a non-union 'Right to Work' state.

 

It was more than a stigma.

 

Cor Tek's 2007 closure of their Korean factories caused a major uproar. They were cleared of any 'wrongdoing' in 2012 but corruption claims lingered, the judge who cleared them was later arrested and the Korean president was impeached. Sacked workers ended up being compensated but it took 12 years. 

It’s been twenty years since I spent any length of time in Asia. Back then conditions in manufacturing and construction were a fair way from what I was accustomed to in Europe. A lot may have changed since, but I don’t have any firsthand knowledge. All I have to go on is reports in the media. They may just be sensationalist eg Foxconn etc. 

Edited April 10, 2023 by tegs07

[NancyJohnson]

Prices are going bonkers, even in the used market.  

 

Don't realistically have a solution for this; god knows how much it costs to make a mass produced instrument like a Stingray that has a street price of £3,000/$3,000, but from my experience working for a manufacturer (non-musical stuff) is that every time we moved product through from factory through distribution through to store front, there was pretty a 100% mark-up each time, so something selling for £1,000 likely cost £50-£100 to make - I suspect it's no different where instruments are concerned.

 

Thing is, Fender/Gibson/etc. are in business to try and generate income and profit.  The Gibson Demo and Mid shops are proof enough that they're able to sell direct to the public cutting out the middleman and making more money at the same time.

 

I'm unsure whether we've reached tipping point just yet; I very much doubt the guys at Musicman are thinking their basses are too expensive and if they did stop selling I doubt they'd reduce prices to aid sales.