Is a new mass-produced bass ever worth more than £1500

[Burns-bass]

2 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

As a general comment. . . . as my experience shows £1700 was the actual cost of a Precision bass in the late 60's. That was for sunburst, the colours cost even more, so the prices have remained pretty constant.

 

If people think the price cuts caused by CNC's and Chinese labour costs equals the "right price" for a bass then fine. IME you get what you pay for and the more expensive "mass production" basses can bring more to the table.

 

If you just want the sound of a bass on a rehearsal or night out gigging with your mates then what they bring won't matter, you're not going to hear, understand or much less care what the differences are. Again that's fine, but don't assume your preferences will be the same for everyone.

 

Those tools that try and calculate the cost of an item historically in today's currency are really basic and flawed. 

 

A better way to relate it to lived experience would be the proportion of the sale price relative to income. For example, in the early 1960s an imported US Strat would cost about £200. The average weekly take home wage was £16 – so that's about 12 weeks work. 

 

Today, through the magic of manufacturing, we can get one for about a month's wage. 

 

 

[TimR]

1 minute ago, Burns-bass said:

Today, through the magic of manufacturing, we can get one for about a month's wage. 

 

Yes, but also its no longer taking a month to make the bass.

[TimR]

10 minutes ago, chris_b said:

If people think the price cuts caused by CNC's and Chinese labour costs equals the "right price" for a bass then fine.

 

It's not just Chinese, and that labour is no less skilled than assembling any other product. Chinese wages are rising the same way as wages all over the world. China is certainly not a 3rd world country.

 

Luthering by hand is probably a skilled and dying art, many people seem to buy a bass and send it straight for a setup. But I'd have thought any fret levelling, setup, etc, that needs to be done after a few years is a skilled job.

 

But I don't see why it's any different having an in house person doing it at the assembly line.

[tegs07]

The reality is that £1500 for a bass is not necessarily mad. £100 for a bass is and reflects a unique period in history when interest rates, inflation and economic co-operation were very favourable.

 

[Bassfinger]

The people that have the disposable income for such purposes don't have a problem with it.

[Nicko]

3 hours ago, Misdee said:

 

 

Expensive Fender-style bass can be the most perplexing sub-category in so much as, strictly in terms of tone, a decent inexpensive model can be hard to distinguish from a boutique example, or indeed a genuine vintage bass.

 

I think it's a mistake  though, to assume that all people get from buying a bass is something they need to perform a practical task with.  Throughout history musical instruments have been regarded as beautiful objects, imbued with magical properties in many ancient cultures. Not   aspiring to the best quality basses for practical reasons doesn't justify dismissing  the aesthetic dimension of high-end basses.

 

 

It doesn't matter how much you spend on a P type bass, it will always be a tool and will never be beautiful. That is essentially the ethos of the design.

 

3 hours ago, theplumber said:

Tried out a Fender Nate Mendel in Merchant City Music Glasgow a while back. Terrible neck. Fret sprout everywhere! I mentioned it to the salesman who said yes a few mexican made Fenders have been like that recently. We will get our tech guy to sort it out before it goes out the door! I had just purchased a second hand Squier Classic Vibe for £200 and it was loads better in every way! By the way I wasn't going to buy the Nate Medel bass anyway.....it's too expensive and I am skint/too tight!!

 

I had exactly the same experience at Wunjo a few years back.  Loved the colour of the Mendel but ended up buying a Squier 70s CV. 

 

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

It's not just Chinese, and that labour is no less skilled than assembling any other product. Chinese wages are rising the same way as wages all over the world. China is certainly not a 3rd world country.

 

Luthering by hand is probably a skilled and dying art, many people seem to buy a bass and send it straight for a setup. But I'd have thought any fret levelling, setup, etc, that needs to be done after a few years is a skilled job.

 

But I don't see why it's any different having an in house person doing it at the assembly line.

 

I'm not sure that there is much skill in the general assembly of a production line guitar, and it all boils down to the QC department at the end of the day.  I vaguely remember adverts for guitars in guitar magazines stating that Fenders are shipped without having the final setup and that it's left to the merchant to do that.  Don't know if that is a) true or b) still the case c) applicable to other manufacturers.

 

Chinese QA/QC on industrial equipment is definitely not as good as most industrialised places.  When I was working we would insist on resident inspectors, up the non destructive testing and the like if we were buying from China

[chris_b]

3 minutes ago, Nicko said:

It doesn't matter how much you spend on a P type bass, it will always be a tool and will never be beautiful.

 

Heresy!!!!

 

 

3 minutes ago, Nicko said:

Chinese QA/QC on industrial equipment is definitely not as good as most industrialised places.  When I was working we would insist on resident inspectors, up the non destructive testing and the like if we were buying from China

 

The Chinese can put a rover on Mars, but it seems they can't make something as simple as a bass. The issue with the 1st generation Sadowsky basses was caused when Covid prevented the Warwick technicians from travelling to China to oversee production, and the Chinese carrying on making the original line of Sadowsky basses without supervision!!

[Burns-bass]

44 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

Heresy!!!!

 

 

 

The Chinese can put a rover on Mars, but it seems they can't make something as simple as a bass. The issue with the 1st generation Sadowsky basses was caused when Covid prevented the Warwick technicians from travelling to China to oversee production, and the Chinese carrying on making the original line of Sadowsky basses without supervision!!

I really don’t think in the UK we can laugh about China and it’s manufacturing.

 

The UK is a fading power trading on past glories. China is technologically more advanced with infrastructure and industry we can only dream of. 

[LukeFRC]

I am writing this on an iPhone made in China - the processor has over 100,000 times the processing power of the Apollo 11 guidance computer. 
Currently there is an arms race of a kind going on in the EV car market, with the large Chinese makers (plus existing car brands) competing with each other to build the best EV- highly technological bits of kit - I was reading that one of their advantages is pure numbers of engineers and designers with uni level degrees coming through Chinese institutions…

 

all to say, I think if a Chinese company wanted to make a high spec version of what is essentially 1950’s tech instrument… I think they would be able to

[chris_b]

I think I covered the Chines ability in the Mars Rover comment.

 

Why does Warwick feel the need to go to the expense of sending over a technician to monitor the production process of their basses?

[Woodinblack]

3 hours ago, asingardenof said:

Inspired by the recent post on the comparison of US costs of instruments in the 60s in today's prices, I thought I'd do something similar here and in today's money my Precision would be worth £430 new according to the BoE inflation calculator (https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetary-policy/inflation/inflation-calculator), which is more or less the same as a new Squier Classic Vibe today.

 

Dont' forget to note that the exchange rate of the US to UK was 2.8 in the mid 60s and Fenders were made in dollars, which is over double what it is now

 

[asingardenof]

37 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Dont' forget to note that the exchange rate of the US to UK was 2.8 in the mid 60s and Fenders were made in dollars, which is over double what it is now

 

I was only considering the individual case of my bass.

[peteb]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

2 hours ago, Nicko said:

It doesn't matter how much you spend on a P type bass, it will always be a tool and will never be beautiful.

 

 

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

Heresy!!!!

 

 

While it is correct that a P bass is essentially a tool, there is a certain type of functional beauty about them! 

 

On Saturday, I went to the 60th birthday party of my old housemate, a former pro bass player and music shop manager who now unfortunately has MS. As you might imagine, the place was full of musos (including quite a few pros), with a band of mates playing and a jam session afterwards. The house bass player for the night brought along a couple of 70s P basses that he had just acquired for around £2k each. Everybody who got up wanted to play the Fenders and there was a bit of talk about the various old Fender basses that we all own or have owned. I don't think that anyone there has an out and out boutique bass, but we all own Fenders (or FSO type basses) and there is a lot of affection for that type of instrument. 

 

Edited May 16 by peteb

[TimR]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

Why does Warwick feel the need to go to the expense of sending over a technician to monitor the production process of their basses?

 

They're Germans. 

[asingardenof]

1 minute ago, TimR said:

 

They're Germans. 

I suspect that Sadowsky chap is quite keen on it as well.

[tauzero]

8 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

There’s often a weird relationship where people with hugely expensive instruments can barely play. I’ve witnessed this many times in vintage guitar shops, or at bass shows.

 

I didn't realise you'd seen me.

[tauzero]

3 hours ago, chris_b said:

The Chinese can put a rover on Mars, but it seems they can't make something as simple as a bass. The issue with the 1st generation Sadowsky basses was caused when Covid prevented the Warwick technicians from travelling to China to oversee production, and the Chinese carrying on making the original line of Sadowsky basses without supervision!!

 

Data isn't the plural of anecdote.

[SteveXFR]

1 hour ago, TimR said:

 

They're Germans. 

 

I've worked for a German engineering company. Stereotypes about German efficiency and quality are all wrong. They do have a sense of humour as well 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, asingardenof said:

I was only considering the individual case of my bass.

 

Well, if you have a 60s american fender, it was sold in dollars and translated to pounds to buy here.

if it is now worth the equivalent of  £430, it would still be over £1000 to buy the equivalent today, if the value was the same in dollars.

[neepheid]

4 minutes ago, SteveXFR said:

 

I've worked for a German engineering company. Stereotypes about German efficiency and quality are all wrong. They do have a sense of humour as well 

 

Ahh, but they have no word for "fluffy"

 

(Blackadder Goes Forth, "Private Plane" - incase anyone doesn't get the reference)

[Jackroadkill]

I have a simple metric which I apply to my non-essential purchases, be they bass-related or otherwise; when I'm not at school (I work as a teacher in a small independent SEN school) I supplement my income by working on a farm, mostly doing the menial jobs.  If I want to buy something, I work out how many hours of sh*t shovelling I have to do in order to fund that purchase.  If it seems like a fair trade, I buy the item.  If not, I manage without.  I'm not that bothered by the cost, necessarily, in terms of pounds, but knowing that hard graft in the piddling rain on Tom Owen's farm funds such purchases makes me take a long hard look before I spend the profits of those hours on stuff I don't really need (like the American Original J-Bass I have my eye on, for example).

[drTStingray]

In 1973 a brand new Fender Precision in natural ash with a maple board was £252 (I know - I lusted over it!!!). It was more than a quarter of my annual salary. 
 

If I was now on 40 hrs a week (under 21 yrs old) at minimum wage (£8-60 per hour), I would be earning £16,512 per annum - so on that basis an 18 yr old me could afford a £4,100 bass guitar - thus team built Fender CS (or the far superior Musicman, which would be even less). 
 

Bah - the youngsters of today don’t know they’re born lol!!! And before a series of excruciatingly stupid political decisions, following which the exchange rate crashed (thanks Nigel et al) you’d have got these basses for an even smaller proportion of your salary (although the Musicman would have not been as good as offered these days - they’ve upped their product in line with price increases - the Fender’s still the same, just pricier).

 

And please don’t use those CPI calculators - as everyone (should) know, they only work on certain average products and most certainly not luxury goods (high quality musical instruments fit into that category). Just try putting the price at say 1996 of a two bedroomed terraced house in the south and see what the calculator claims it’s worth, based on inflation and then compare with reality…….. in the immortal words of Fleetwood Mac “you might not get the answer that you wanted to” 😀

 

(Post script - CPI doesn’t include housing costs I think - do the same with RPI - similar outcome I think!!) 

Edited May 16 by drTStingray

[dclaassen]

I guess I had a different experience. In 1978, I was at university, but also gigging 2-5 nights a week. I was taking home about $150-300 a night. I bought my 63 Jazz for around $250, then a new RD Artist for $800. School and rent was cheap. I sure wish the prices were that kind today.

[Dan Dare]

15 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

There’s often a weird relationship where people with hugely expensive instruments can barely play. I’ve witnessed this many times in vintage guitar shops, or at bass shows.

 

Very true. Wealthy weekend warriors - lawyers, doctors and other professional types - buy an awful lot of premium instruments. They are rarely capable of using them for their intended purpose, but we shouldn't knock it, because it's thanks to them that many instrument manufacturers stay afloat. Real musicians tend to find and stick with a few instruments that we really like and change them relatively rarely. When we do, we often buy something old and used. Fender and Spector aren't going to stay in business because I have a couple of nice older basses from them, for example.

 

The really wealthy collect vintage instruments. Few can play them decently or even competently/at all. Some years ago, some US multi-millionaire placed ad's in a number of the instrument magazines, such as Frets, looking to buy vintage stuff. The ad's, which included much bragging about how well he'd done and how much of the folding stuff he'd accumulated, carried a photo of him, wearing jeans with knife edge creases down the legs (always a sign that someone is deeply dodgy), sitting on the bonnet of the Batmobile (he'd apparently bought it from the film company), holding a '59 Les Paul and a Gibson Citation jazz box. He was clutching them like shovels - it was obvious he didn't even know how to hold them. He saw them purely as investments.

 

I thought of parcelling up a dog turd and sending it to him, with a note explaining that he would probably be better able to use it than a fine vintage instrument, but I decided it probably wasn't wise.

[asingardenof]

6 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Well, if you have a 60s american fender, it was sold in dollars and translated to pounds to buy here.

if it is now worth the equivalent of  £430, it would still be over £1000 to buy the equivalent today, if the value was the same in dollars.

I'm not sure why that's relevant to what I posted. Someone asked about the price of a 90s Korean P-bass, I said what mine cost in 1998, then worked out what it would cost in today's money and compared it to the equivalent current model and noted they were more or less the same. That's it. I wasn't referring anything back to that post about instruments in the US from the 60s other than to say it gave me the idea to work out the equivalent current price.