Tips for writing walking lines

[xilddx]

[quote name='XB26354' post='517417' date='Jun 18 2009, 02:31 PM']I posted that, and I didn't say it - the class teacher did![/quote]

Oh I know, just couldn't be bothered to look through and find the original post. Thanks.

[xilddx]

Thanks for the replies both. It's starting to make sense to me now.

Cheers!

[teej]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='516416' date='Jun 17 2009, 02:07 PM']The most useful notes to use to outline the chords are the basic triads...

Obvious choices for the Cm7 would be the root, m3 and 5 of the chord (C, Eb, G).
Obvious choices for the F7 would be the root, 3 and 5 of the chord (F, A, C)
Obvious choices for the Bbmaj7 would be the root, 3, and 5 of the chord (Bb, D, F)
Obvious choices for the Ebmaj7 would be the root, 3 and 5 of the chord (Eb, G, Bb)
Obvious choices for the Am7b5 would be the root, m3 and b5 of the chord (A, C, Eb)
Obvious choices for the D7#9 would be the root, 3 and 5 of the chord (D, F#, A)
Obvious choices for the Gm would be the root, m3 and 5 of the chord (G, Bb, D)[/quote]

Might I suggest (somewhat tentatively) that root, third and seventh are better choices than root, third and fifth? As the fifth is mostly the same interval, it's not getting us as near to the full chord as the seventh? Or is there another, better reason for choosing fifth? (I say this because I would use root third seventh if I'm forming a chord).

[XB26354]

That's true when talking about forming chords, but the 5th is one of the strongest notes a bass player can play on (non flat 5/sharp 11) chords. It is the 2nd harmonic in the overtone series (I think after the fundamental and the octave) and also implies V-I root movement, giving a line movement as well as tension and release. Most experienced walking bassists prefer to play smoother linear lines (think of a bouncing rubber ball!) without too many intervallic leaps, though this is sometimes good to break up or build an idea collectively.

[teej]

[quote name='XB26354' post='517624' date='Jun 18 2009, 05:35 PM']That's true when talking about forming chords, but the 5th is one of the strongest notes a bass player can play on (non flat 5/sharp 11) chords. It is the 2nd harmonic in the overtone series (I think after the fundamental and the octave) and also implies V-I root movement, giving a line movement as well as tension and release. Most experienced walking bassists prefer to play smoother linear lines (think of a bouncing rubber ball!) without too many intervallic leaps, though this is sometimes good to break up or build an idea collectively.[/quote]

Yeah, I getcha... and, thinking about how I play, there's a very liberal sprinkling of fifths in there. Just felt like joining in the conversation

[rslaing]

[quote name='teej' post='517613' date='Jun 18 2009, 05:28 PM']Might I suggest (somewhat tentatively) that root, third and seventh are better choices than root, third and fifth? As the fifth is mostly the same interval, it's not getting us as near to the full chord as the seventh? Or is there another, better reason for choosing fifth? (I say this because I would use root third seventh if I'm forming a chord). [/quote]

You are correct. Even tentatively

The fifth is very important and a great filler note in walking bass. But a good player has to know all of the notes that will work so he can build good melodic lines.

Music isn't just produced from "recipe" books and bits and bobs of information. The technical knowledge just gives a musician a springboard to work from. Musicians have to internalise what they learn, and express that knowledge without having to think about what they are doing. The instrument has to become an extension of the players mind, and the player has to be able to convey what they have in their head to their instrument in a fraction of a second.

It is (in jazz especially) the 3rd and the seventh that define the chord. The tritone, is a very important interval. The fifth, because it is a strong overtone, can be omitted by a guitarist (for example) or a bassist playing chords, and still be "heard" if the root is played. That is why it can be omitted - it is the strongest overtone in the harmonic series outside of the fundamental.

I learned that one from the George van Eps guitar tutorials, and what he doesn't know about harmony isn't worth knowing! He has a philosophy based on economy of effort, and very rarely (in spite of playing a seven string guitar) played more than 3 note chords. But he picked the right notes and got a really full sound.

Also, if there are altered notes, like the 9th (either sharpened or flattened) these could be used in place of the chordal notes in the basic triad if desired to accentuate the harmonic differences when playing walking bass. Even if the note played isn't in the chord, it can still fit - Ray Brown used lots of "approach notes" that theoretically should not have worked. It helped that he spent most of his pronounced years with Oscar Peterson of course, they totally complimented each other. Almost psychic I would say. It is really down to personal choice - once you know THE RULES.

The great jazz walking bassists use the chord changes as a canvas, and add their knowledge, experience and hearing skills to determine the lines they play.

Of course, if the lead instruments are plugging away on the extension/altered chords, the bassist can stick to the primitive triads, but they rarely do. You can't feasibly create a good walking bass line from just triads. The bassist plays what they feel is the best note of their choices, and this gives the player their musical personality. In jazz, it is this that is important, unlike other genres where their sound/tone is the giveaway. (Maybe the reason for the massive turnover of gear amongst the non-jazzers in this forum?). To me it really is all about "the notes".

Be careful not to play (in the vast majority of cases) any minor 9th intervals that might clash harmonically. And that is why in 11th chords, the 3rd in the diatonic triad is omitted. the interval between a major third from the tonic and the 11th is a minor 9th.

However, if it is played a couple of octaves apart - it can work! All to do with understanding the harmonic series. Which only took me about 30 years.................and I still play lots of bum notes

Sorry for the long rambling post (if you have got this far), been in the pub a fair bit of the day!!

Edited June 18, 2009 by rslaing

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='517687' date='Jun 18 2009, 06:38 PM']You are correct. Even tentatively

The fifth is very important and a great filler note in walking bass. But a good player has to know all of the notes that will work so he can build good melodic lines.

Music isn't just produced from "recipe" books and bits and bobs of information. The technical knowledge just gives a musician a springboard to work from. Musicians have to internalise what they learn, and express that knowledge without having to think about what they are doing. The instrument has to become an extension of the players mind, and the player has to be able to convey what they have in their head to their instrument in a fraction of a second.

It is (in jazz especially) the 3rd and the seventh that define the chord. The tritone, is a very important interval. The fifth, because it is a strong overtone, can be omitted by a guitarist (for example) or a bassist playing chords, and still be "heard" if the root is played. That is why it can be omitted - it is the strongest overtone in the harmonic series outside of the fundamental.

I learned that one from the George van Eps guitar tutorials, and what he doesn't know about harmony isn't worth knowing! He has a philosophy based on economy of effort, and very rarely (in spite of playing a seven string guitar) played more than 3 note chords. But he picked the right notes and got a really full sound.

Also, if there are altered notes, like the 9th (either sharpened or flattened) these could be used in place of the chordal notes in the basic triad if desired to accentuate the harmonic differences when playing walking bass. Even if the note played isn't in the chord, it can still fit - Ray Brown used lots of "approach notes" that theoretically should not have worked. It helped that he spent most of his pronounced years with Oscar Peterson of course, they totally complimented each other. Almost psychic I would say. It is really down to personal choice - once you know THE RULES.

The great jazz walking bassists use the chord changes as a canvas, and add their knowledge, experience and hearing skills to determine the lines they play.

Of course, if the lead instruments are plugging away on the extension/altered chords, the bassist can stick to the primitive triads, but they rarely do. You can't feasibly create a good walking bass line from just triads. The bassist plays what they feel is the best note of their choices, and this gives the player their musical personality. In jazz, it is this that is important, unlike other genres where their sound/tone is the giveaway. (Maybe the reason for the massive turnover of gear amongst the non-jazzers in this forum?). To me it really is all about "the notes".

Be careful not to play (in the vast majority of cases) any minor 9th intervals that might clash harmonically. And that is why in 11th chords, the 3rd in the diatonic triad is omitted. the interval between a major third from the tonic and the 11th is a minor 9th.

However, if it is played a couple of octaves apart - it can work! All to do with understanding the harmonic series. Which only took me about 30 years.................and I still play lots of bum notes

Sorry for the long rambling post (if you have got this far), been in the pub a fair bit of the day!![/quote]
Hi rslaing
I feel I must comment on your post. I think most of what you say or allude to is quite correct and very well put.

However I must take issue with a couple of points (or is that a couple of pints too many today ?!)
You start off by saying the fifth of the chord is an important note. Then you seem to say the fifth can be omitted without affecting the sound of the chord. This is where i take issue with you.
As every arranger knows, the fifth of the chord can be a great tool for creating counterpoint lines. It can be sharpened or flattened (assuming the melody note is not the fifth) - for instance think of the intro to the James Bond theme: the fifth moves up a semitone to the aug 5th and then to the 6th and down again. When the melody comes in - tonic/2nd/tonic/minor 3rd etc - the counterpoint line continues in the same way.

So what I'm trying to say is that the fifth is equally important in creating a harmonic movement - you can't say that any one note of the chord is less important than another. If the fifth in a given chord is a natural (perfect) fifth, then it is saying something about the nature of that chord and the bass player must be aware of that. If however the chord is say Dm7b5 (D half diminished) leading to G7 then that Ab in the first chord is a pivotal note in that sequence. The bass player doesn't HAVE to play Ab but an A natural will certainly sound dubious - and an Ab leading to the G root will give a clear direction to the harmony.

You say "It is really down to personal choice - once you know THE RULES. " My mantra when teaching and giving improv workshops is that "There are no rules in music - only preferences". I'm a firm believer that the more you pile RULES onto young players the more inhibited they become. Give them a chance to experiment with the notes under their fingers and they will find out for themselves what works and what doesn't. My own musical education was full of rules and it took me years to shake them off and allow creativity to take over. Having said that, everything I was taught is theoretically correct - but music doesn't develop if you constrict it with too many rules. After all music theory is just that - a theory. You need to know and respect it - then throw it away and make your own musical decisions.

You say: "Be careful not to play (in the vast majority of cases) any minor 9th intervals that might clash harmonically. And that is why in 11th chords, the 3rd in the diatonic triad is omitted. the interval between a major third from the tonic and the 11th is a minor 9th."
To be honest this makes no sense at all. Harmony can be full of dissonances (harmonic clashes) - it is what gives it direction. If the bass player plays a flattened ninth as a passing note under a dominant chord it will help to describe the harmonic direction very nicely. I think your statement here is totally confusing for anyone with limited harmonic experience and I worry that those players will go away and fret about it (no pun intended!)

Hope this doesn't sound too offensive ! I agree with most of what you say - its just these 3 little points.

The Major

[xilddx]

Crikey, this is waaaayyyy hey heeyyy too heavy for me to understand properly at the moment. But it's fascinating nonetheless. Thanks!

[dlloyd]

[quote name='teej' post='517613' date='Jun 18 2009, 05:28 PM']Might I suggest (somewhat tentatively) that root, third and seventh are better choices than root, third and fifth? As the fifth is mostly the same interval, it's not getting us as near to the full chord as the seventh? Or is there another, better reason for choosing fifth? (I say this because I would use root third seventh if I'm forming a chord). [/quote]

Remember that usually we're not the only ones forming the harmony. Guitarists and pianists tend to play the 3rd and 7th (and appropriate extensions and altered notes) for the reasons rslaing mentioned, and will usually provide that part of the harmony. Concentrating mostly on roots, thirds and fifths (on the strong beats) should also prevent the overall harmony from getting too weird by keeping the chord in the root position, 1st and 2nd inversions.

But then, I'm no expert.

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='517839' date='Jun 18 2009, 09:08 PM']Hi rslaing
I feel I must comment on your post. I think most of what you say or allude to is quite correct and very well put.

However I must take issue with a couple of points (or is that a couple of pints too many today ?!)[/quote]

Too many pints probably

[quote]You start off by saying the fifth of the chord is an important note. Then you seem to say the fifth can be omitted without affecting the sound of the chord. This is where i take issue with you.
As every arranger knows, the fifth of the chord can be a great tool for creating counterpoint lines. It can be sharpened or flattened (assuming the melody note is not the fifth) - for instance think of the intro to the James Bond theme: the fifth moves up a semitone to the aug 5th and then to the 6th and down again. When the melody comes in - tonic/2nd/tonic/minor 3rd etc - the counterpoint line continues in the same way.[/quote]

I agree! But the point I was trying to make is that the chord is defined by the 3rd and the seventh. These are the most important notes that will define the "sound" of the chord. If you omit either of these in preference to the fifth, the chord will sound "weaker". Try it - play C - E(the third as against the fifth) - Bb as a chord (C7) and then play C - G (the fifth)- Bb as a C7. The latter is profoundly weaker. In other words, in a 3 note chord (in jazz) , the note to omit is the fifth, because it will be heard as a harmonic overtone from the root anyway.

[quote]So what I'm trying to say is that the fifth is equally important in creating a harmonic movement - you can't say that any one note of the chord is less important than another. If the fifth in a given chord is a natural (perfect) fifth, then it is saying something about the nature of that chord and the bass player must be aware of that. If however the chord is say Dm7b5 (D half diminished) leading to G7 then that Ab in the first chord is a pivotal note in that sequence. The bass player doesn't HAVE to play Ab but an A natural will certainly sound dubious - and an Ab leading to the G root will give a clear direction to the harmony.[/quote]

My points were made with reference to creating/writing walking bass lines. I add to my post by saying that if the fifth is an altered fifth, then it is very important that this note is effected. Apologies for not making that clear. Any altered note in a chord has to be obvious, and preferably but not necessarily by the bass player.

[quote]You say "It is really down to personal choice - once you know THE RULES. " My mantra when teaching and giving improv workshops is that "There are no rules in music - only preferences". I'm a firm believer that the more you pile RULES onto young players the more inhibited they become. Give them a chance to experiment with the notes under their fingers and they will find out for themselves what works and what doesn't. My own musical education was full of rules and it took me years to shake them off and allow creativity to take over. Having said that, everything I was taught is theoretically correct - but music doesn't develop if you constrict it with too many rules. After all music theory is just that - a theory. You need to know and respect it - then throw it away and make your own musical decisions.[/quote]

Sorry, there are rules, as you pointed out in your previous paragraph above. As Charlie Parker said - “Master your instrument, Master the music, and then forget all that sh*t and just play.” It is important that you know the basic rules, then you can just eliminate what is not necessary, or apply your own preferences.

[quote]You say: "Be careful not to play (in the vast majority of cases) any minor 9th intervals that might clash harmonically. And that is why in 11th chords, the 3rd in the diatonic triad is omitted. the interval between a major third from the tonic and the 11th is a minor 9th."
To be honest this makes no sense at all. Harmony can be full of dissonances (harmonic clashes) - it is what gives it direction. If the bass player plays a flattened ninth as a passing note under a dominant chord it will help to describe the harmonic direction very nicely. I think your statement here is totally confusing for anyone with limited harmonic experience and I worry that those players will go away and fret about it (no pun intended!)[/quote]

Please re-read your paragraph And my quote. My comment is with reference to 11th chords - not a "normal" dominant. Minor 9ths are the most dissonant interval (as you are probably aware) and unless you are know what you are doing, avoid them. Dissonances in the hands of an expert are not a problem, and using them as an approach note they are possibly the definitive sound in jazz. I omitted to mention that a minor ninth in a dominant chord is the exception - apologies, and thanks for the correction.

To a newbie or someone setting out in the area of harmony and in this case, walking bass lines, it is very important that they have this knowledge - IMO.

Most non chordal and some chordal notes can be altered when reading, for example, a lead sheet, unless they clash with the melody note, just avoid minor ninths until you are aware of their impact.

[quote]Hope this doesn't sound too offensive ! I agree with most of what you say - its just these 3 little points.

The Major[/quote]

Not at all, you can't beat a good debate (unless it is a "massdebate" of course). We need more stuff like this. To get the brain working (difficult for me) and to educate the people who want to learn. Even if it provokes conversation, it's great.

Edited June 19, 2009 by rslaing

[rslaing]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='517854' date='Jun 18 2009, 09:34 PM']Remember that usually we're not the only ones forming the harmony. Guitarists and pianists tend to play the 3rd and 7th (and appropriate extensions and altered notes) for the reasons rslaing mentioned, and will usually provide that part of the harmony. Concentrating mostly on roots, thirds and fifths (on the strong beats) should also prevent the overall harmony from getting too weird by keeping the chord in the root position, 1st and 2nd inversions.

But then, I'm no expert.[/quote]

Good point, and as I said, your choice of notes depends upon what the other players in the band are playing. Which is where your knowledge of the other players and their preferences, as well as your "ears" come in to play.

In my experience, and in agreement with your comment, I always accentuate the chordal notes on the "strong" beats, to determine the key areas or modes, and use the "less strong" ( I nearly said weaker, but there isn't such a thing really) beats to play the extended chord tones and altered notes.

And BTW, I am not an expert either, I just like to chuck in my knowledge to date. If I learn something from a contradiction, I am the richer for it.

Although I do have a slight problem relating some of my theories because I'm from Newcastle.

Edited June 18, 2009 by rslaing

[lowdown]

Stella by Starlight - Paul Chambers.
2 feel then into 4's.

[attachment=27296:Stella_B...Chambers.pdf]

Edit...
Just noticed that when it goes into the walking line [ actually the swing 8 notes - A section ]
The first 2 notes should be E Naturals and not Eb's.


Garry

Edited June 18, 2009 by lowdown

[rslaing]

In addition to my previous ramblings, and to clear up a few points, below is a link to a scale syllabus.

It is fairly basic, but covers every chord and gives you a scale that will "fit" when you are creating walking bass lines. Just remember that there are alternative scales to some of the chords, and you can experiment to develop your own preferences.

For those who don't read music, it also shows a simple way to develop the scale using a half step (one fret at a time) whole step (two frets) method.

For extended chords, for example, 11ths and 13ths, remember that these are respectively the 4th and 6th of the scale. Have fun, and don't "do your brains in"!!

If you have any questions about any of it, feel free to ask by PM . Although I am sure that open questions will be more welcome and help everyone. A sort of FAQ on relative scales to chords if you like.

I hope it is of use and will help to find the notes you like when creating walking bass lines from a chord sheet.

I have also added[url="http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57278"] this link[/url] to a very informative piece "Principles of Jazz Bass Line Construction" by Chuck Israels, the ex bass player for Bill Evans. It has audio samples too.

Edited June 19, 2009 by rslaing

[xilddx]

[quote name='rslaing' post='516667' date='Jun 17 2009, 05:36 PM']Jazz trio, walking bass examples !

Might not appeal to all, but this is jazz walking bass at it's best. Sorry I couldn't any decent sounds of Oscar Peterson with Ray Brown to upload

I've only linked to this because it is a good example of a simple (!) and slow line.

And for the people asking about jazz, swing, etc - it is the bass and drums that really make it what it is.

I guess if you listen to it enough, you will find "the feel". Just as you do with any other genre whilst you are learning.

In the first (slower one) you will see how when the bassist breaks from two to the bar to quarter notes, the effect it has on the swing feel.



and here is a real swinger, a bit busy for some perhaps, but a great bass contribution from one the greatest bassists ever. Open for argument as usual

[/quote]

I LOVE the second clip! That's my kind of jazz.

I'm hoping when I nip over to the Ealing Jazz festival this year, I might see some stuff in a new light and enjoy it. However, most the the stuff on offer is the same old soporific standards that make me want to eat my own face. I go every year hoping I'll feel some magic, never happens

[lowdown]

Confirmation - Niels Pederson.
If you are into NP.
This one has plenty of kicks and triplets.

[attachment=27301:Confirma...Pederson.pdf]




Garry

Edited June 19, 2009 by lowdown

[lowdown]

[quote name='silddx' post='518119' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:43 AM']However, most the the stuff on offer is the same old soporific standards that make me want to eat my own face.[/quote]

I think that really depends on who is playing 'the same old soporific standards'
But i know what you mean.

Garry

[dlloyd]

[quote name='silddx' post='518119' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:43 AM']I LOVE the second clip! That's my kind of jazz.[/quote]

A bit off-topic as there's no bass on this one, but here's my favourite version of that song...

[xilddx]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='518168' date='Jun 19 2009, 10:44 AM']A bit off-topic as there's no bass on this one, but here's my favourite version of that song...

[/quote]

Stunning!! Won't see any of that at Ealing Jazz festival

[dlloyd]

[quote name='silddx' post='518406' date='Jun 19 2009, 02:16 PM']Stunning!! Won't see any of that at Ealing Jazz festival [/quote]

The guy with the pencil moustache is Angelo Debarre. The slightly 'heavier-set' bloke is Birelli Lagrene, who played in Jaco's last touring band and is also a pretty phenomenal bassist. I think Stochello Rosenberg is also in that clip.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='517862' date='Jun 18 2009, 09:40 PM']Too many pints probably



I agree! But the point I was trying to make is that the chord is defined by the 3rd and the seventh. These are the most important notes that will define the "sound" of the chord. If you omit either of these in preference to the fifth, the chord will sound "weaker". Try it - play C - E(the third as against the fifth) - Bb as a chord (C7) and then play C - G (the fifth)- Bb as a C7. The latter is profoundly weaker. In other words, in a 3 note chord (in jazz) , the note to omit is the fifth, because it will be heard as a harmonic overtone from the root anyway.



My points were made with reference to creating/writing walking bass lines. I add to my post by saying that if the fifth is an altered fifth, then it is very important that this note is effected. Apologies for not making that clear. Any altered note in a chord has to be obvious, and preferably but not necessarily by the bass player.



Sorry, there are rules, as you pointed out in your previous paragraph above. As Charlie Parker said - “Master your instrument, Master the music, and then forget all that sh*t and just play.” It is important that you know the basic rules, then you can just eliminate what is not necessary, or apply your own preferences.



Please re-read your paragraph And my quote. My comment is with reference to 11th chords - not a "normal" dominant. Minor 9ths are the most dissonant interval (as you are probably aware) and unless you are know what you are doing, avoid them. Dissonances in the hands of an expert are not a problem, and using them as an approach note they are possibly the definitive sound in jazz. I omitted to mention that a minor ninth in a dominant chord is the exception - apologies, and thanks for the correction.

To a newbie or someone setting out in the area of harmony and in this case, walking bass lines, it is very important that they have this knowledge - IMO.

Most non chordal and some chordal notes can be altered when reading, for example, a lead sheet, unless they clash with the melody note, just avoid minor ninths until you are aware of their impact.



Not at all, you can't beat a good debate (unless it is a "massdebate" of course). We need more stuff like this. To get the brain working (difficult for me) and to educate the people who want to learn. Even if it provokes conversation, it's great.[/quote]
Your right, a good debate is great for the old grey cells. But there is so much here now that I want to say, my brain is clogging up !!
Firstly, I think we are coming at this jazz harmony disscussion from slightly different perspectives - and that is great, because if we all had the same approach music would be very boring. Creative musicians (and jazz musicians are by its very nature creative) all have a different way of looking at things and that is to be celebrated.
My views are coloured by the fact that I am also a composer/arranger/orchestrater whereas I believe you are looking at it from the practical playing perspective. So I think we are saying the same thing but just in differing ways.
Harmony and theory can be very daunting to beginners mainly because it seems very mathematical and almost scientific. I try to give my students a sense of the emotional effect of different groupings of notes - I talk about stable or unstable chords / warm or cold harmonies / comforting or discomforting sounds - this sort of thing.

To the debate:
Fifths:
Your example of C E Bb as opposed to C G Bb doesn't hold up. C G Bb is not a C7 chord because there is no 3rd either major minor or suspended. These 3 notes together have a very distinctive sound. And its quite different from a dominant 7th chord.
Let me put this example to you:
Play C E G Bb - a regular dominant 7th - an unsettled unstable sound - it wants to resolve to its tonic chord of F.
Now play C E Gb Bb - C7b5 - quite a different texture - it too wants to move - it is unstable but with an extra edge to it.
But this chord could just as easily be called Gb7b5 and move to ITS home tonic of Cb (. The notes are the same just enharmonically different (Gb Bb Dbb Fb).
What I'm trying to show here is that the 5th, whether it is natural, flattened or sharpened, makes a huge difference to the perception of that group of notes. Every note in a group of notes has an affect on the harmonic direction.

I'm running out of time now so I'll discuss 11th s with you next time.

Actually reading this back, I don't think I've addressed you comments properly - I think we agree more than we disagree.
But its fun trying to clarify ones thoughts.

I was playing on some commercial CD sessions today and i couldn't get these discussions out of my head ! I'm sure i wasn't concentrating properly on the job in hand !

The Major

[XB26354]

I think the above addresses some of the key elements of harmony (especially Jazz harmony) - tension and release, and the tritone (which some consider to be the most important interval or tension in music). When talking about 11th chords, or sus chords and minor ninths, it is of course possible to play a chord with a major 3rd and perfect 4th (same as a perfect 11th an octave lower). In my explorations on piano I find that if you voice the chord with the 4th below the 3rd you get a lovely rich sound, and remove one of the most dissonant clashes when 3rd is below 4th. There is a great version of "Caravan" on Michel Camilo's "Rendezvous" Where Anthony Jackson plays a root-minor 9th double stop against the prevailing 7b9 harmony - daring but fit perfectly.
I don't see any problem in looking at harmony in a number of different ways. Going back to the question, and borrowing a bit from classical harmony a bassist could do worse than look at the melody and work out ways to play contrapuntal (i.e. moving in opposite direction to the change in pitch of each melody note).
I remember a very short Scott Henderson column in Guitar Player where he looked at reharmonisation. Take any melody note then build a chord that fits on each of the 12 possible bass notes (e.g., if the melody note is C, then you could have C, DbMaj7, D7/Dm7m Eb6/9, E7+5, Any F, any Gb7#11, G7sus, Ab, A7#9, BbMaj9, B7b9 - these are just one possible sequence). This opens your ears up to the possibility of on-the-fly reharmonisation, from which, if you're not careful, you could end up with harmolodics! Topically, Ornette Coleman is chairing this year's Meltdown festival in London...

[rslaing]

[quote name='XB26354' post='518978' date='Jun 19 2009, 11:41 PM']I think the above addresses some of the key elements of harmony (especially Jazz harmony) - tension and release, and the tritone (which some consider to be the most important interval or tension in music). When talking about 11th chords, or sus chords and minor ninths, it is of course possible to play a chord with a major 3rd and perfect 4th (same as a perfect 11th an octave lower). In my explorations on piano I find that if you voice the chord with the 4th below the 3rd you get a lovely rich sound, and remove one of the most dissonant clashes when 3rd is below 4th. There is a great version of "Caravan" on Michel Camilo's "Rendezvous" Where Anthony Jackson plays a root-minor 9th double stop against the prevailing 7b9 harmony - daring but fit perfectly.
I don't see any problem in looking at harmony in a number of different ways. Going back to the question, and borrowing a bit from classical harmony a bassist could do worse than look at the melody and work out ways to play contrapuntal (i.e. moving in opposite direction to the change in pitch of each melody note).
I remember a very short Scott Henderson column in Guitar Player where he looked at reharmonisation. Take any melody note then build a chord that fits on each of the 12 possible bass notes (e.g., if the melody note is C, then you could have C, DbMaj7, D7/Dm7m Eb6/9, E7+5, Any F, any Gb7#11, G7sus, Ab, A7#9, BbMaj9, B7b9 - these are just one possible sequence). This opens your ears up to the possibility of on-the-fly reharmonisation, from which, if you're not careful, you could end up with harmolodics! Topically, Ornette Coleman is chairing this year's Meltdown festival in London...[/quote]

Great post, thanks. The Scott Henderson info is interesting......

When I brought up the minor 9th "discussion" I didn't think it would develop this far

Hopefully the attached document will assist as a GENERAL guide on why this interval can be the most dissonant of them all.

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='518852' date='Jun 19 2009, 09:14 PM']I'm running out of time now so I'll discuss 11th s with you next time.

Actually reading this back, I don't think I've addressed you comments properly - I think we agree more than we disagree.
But its fun trying to clarify ones thoughts.

The Major[/quote]

I agree with everything you say And perhaps we are just putting things in different ways.
I was trying to keep things really simple, because of the nature of the topic - and perhaps my points, although in agreement with yours, were a little too vague and therefore could be misleading.

Anyway, it's been interesting and thanks for your input. I hope you can convey more of your wisdom and knowledge in future posts, I look forward to them.

Rob

[jakenewmanbass]

I haven't read these posts in depth as I'm a little road weary from a trip to Germany but will give them my full attention when the fuzz lifts.
Just wanted to say how fascinating it is now that we have some more (and very knowledgeable) voices in the room, it's a wide subject and can come from many perspectives so the more the merrier.
Great stuff guys...

Edited June 22, 2009 by jakesbass

[lowdown]

Nice Ray Brown line here for Ain't Misbehavin'
Enjoy......

[attachment=27510:Ain__t_M...ay_Brown.pdf]


Garry