Tips for writing walking lines

[Bilbo]

Great stuff going on here, some of which I can't digest away from my bass/guitar/piano (I think with the instrument in mind not just the notes).

Chord names are usually defined by the role they have at any given time, by what comes before and what comes after it. That can often resolve confusions about chord names.

One epiphany I had, after a few years of confusion, was the relationships between some chords, inversions, substitutions etc and the associated scales - I would get very confused about slash chords, for instance, not really comprehending that they were often contextually very simple (e.g. a descending root (like Am7 follwed by Am7/G), or a third in the bass (e.g. C/E). In my experience, the best way to learn this stuff is not just academically but in the context of a piece of music. That way it sticks more readily. This can be a problem if the music you listen to is too 'simple' - a lot of popular genres lack harmonic depth so you can 'understand' the theory of an Abmaj7sharp11 but you will never hear it when you play! That's why jazz can be a great space to go and learn because it integrates the theory much more extensively than soime other genres (and its better, of course).

[xilddx]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='520497' date='Jun 22 2009, 09:18 AM']I haven't read these posts in depth as I'm a little road weary from a trip to Germany but will give them my full attention when the fuzz lifts.
Just wanted to say how fascinating it is now that we have some more (and very knowledgeable) voices in the room, it's a wide subject and can come from many perspectives so the more the merrier.
Great stuff guys...[/quote]

It is great stuff, I'm learning a lot and feeling very small indeed!

BTW, Jake, hope Germany went well for you.

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='520257' date='Jun 21 2009, 09:02 PM']I agree with everything you say And perhaps we are just putting things in different ways.
I was trying to keep things really simple, because of the nature of the topic - and perhaps my points, although in agreement with yours, were a little too vague and therefore could be misleading.

Anyway, it's been interesting and thanks for your input. I hope you can convey more of your wisdom and knowledge in future posts, I look forward to them.

Rob[/quote]
Hi Rob - I must say I'm enjoying all our various ramblings - it makes me think about things I've not thought about for years!

Re 5ths:
I think I've finally cottoned on to what you were talking about !
You are right of course - if there is one note that CAN be left out of a 7th chord it is the 5th. And this idea (as you know I won't call it a RULE!) stems from the classical period when all harmony theorising was in 4 parts or voices - a string quartet or SATB (soprano/also/tenor/bass) for instance. (This is the way I was taught at music college back in the dark ages. Endless 4 part harmony exercises with RULES like no consecutive fifths or doubled thirds - all perfectly reasonable if you want to write "church" harmony - but if like me you were into voluptuous jazz chords it was soooo boring!)

So if a 5 note chord - say a C dominant 9th - was to be written for string quartet (4 parts), the 5th, being the least important note, was omitted. That is not to say that its omission won't make the chord sound different - its just the one note that has the least effect on the chord's overall tonality. As you said, the 5th is implied anyway by the harmonic overtones of the tonic.

So we are in full agreement - OK ?

(Note to self - I must learn to read people's words more carefully)

The Major

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='521081' date='Jun 22 2009, 07:56 PM']Hi Rob - I must say I'm enjoying all our various ramblings - it makes me think about things I've not thought about for years!

Re 5ths:
I think I've finally cottoned on to what you were talking about !
You are right of course - if there is one note that CAN be left out of a 7th chord it is the 5th. And this idea (as you know I won't call it a RULE!) stems from the classical period when all harmony theorising was in 4 parts or voices - a string quartet or SATB (soprano/also/tenor/bass) for instance. (This is the way I was taught at music college back in the dark ages. Endless 4 part harmony exercises with RULES like no consecutive fifths or doubled thirds - all perfectly reasonable if you want to write "church" harmony - but if like me you were into voluptuous jazz chords it was soooo boring!)

So if a 5 note chord - say a C dominant 9th - was to be written for string quartet (4 parts), the 5th, being the least important note, was omitted. That is not to say that its omission won't make the chord sound different - its just the one note that has the least effect on the chord's overall tonality. As you said, the 5th is implied anyway by the harmonic overtones of the tonic.

So we are in full agreement - OK ?

(Note to self - I must learn to read people's words more carefully)

The Major[/quote]

Of course we are in agreement And thanks again for your eloquent explanation.

Rob

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='520247' date='Jun 21 2009, 08:50 PM']Great post, thanks. The Scott Henderson info is interesting......

When I brought up the minor 9th "discussion" I didn't think it would develop this far

Hopefully the attached document will assist as a GENERAL guide on why this interval can be the most dissonant of them all. [/quote]
Rob - this "avoid notes" document is intriguing. What book is it from and by whom ?

[rslaing]

[quote name='Major-Minor' post='521092' date='Jun 22 2009, 08:03 PM']Rob - this "avoid notes" document is intriguing. What book is it from and by whom ?[/quote]

To go a very long way around your question:

I have, over the years, accumulated a vast library of stuff because apart from piano lessons and a brief time at music college (where they gave out diplomas if you just turned up), I have had to "self educate" to achieve a modicum of understanding of this wonderful thing called music.

I had a great degree of difficulty getting answers to problems like "avoid" notes (a poor terminology really) and things like minor scale choices for harmony, arranging and improvisation, key centres and modal music, so when I had a few quid, I bought everything and anything I could to satisfy my thirst for knowledge.

Because of copyright probs etc, I can't upload most of it on to here unfortunately. But if you PM me your email address, I will "lend" you an electronic copy of that document.

It is fairly basic, but very informative and as you can see, easy reading.

I still believe that Mark Levine and his book on Jazz Theory is the most comprehensive I have come across. But even so, it is still missing in some areas.
Especially if you have OCD for musical knowledge - as I do

The best jazz educational publication I have is by [url="http://www.barryharris.com/"](link here)[/url] Barry Harris, who is a great educator and a brilliant musician and man, still teaching for no financial reward in New York at the age of 80. A DVD (4 hours) with him in a practical class allied to a superb book which explains in depth all of his theories (and he turns a few previous conventional ideas upside down) has been the most impressive I have in my library. You can borrow that too, if you like. He certainly puts a different take on Jazz theory. He actually played at the Vanguard (still does) and sat in with Charlie Parker et al.

I have written this last bit with the intent of introducing Barry Harris to anyone who hasn't heard about him and wants to learn. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Harris"]Here is his impressive C.V.[/url], and profile.

Rob

Edited June 22, 2009 by rslaing

[foal30]

Levine yes a good one for sure

maybe Charlie Banacos too, I know Jeff Berlin digs him
so maybe we want to tone down all this key center stuff

how about harmonic generalization?

[Major-Minor]

[quote name='rslaing' post='521117' date='Jun 22 2009, 08:26 PM']To go a very long way around your question:

I have, over the years, accumulated a vast library of stuff because apart from piano lessons and a brief time at music college (where they gave out diplomas if you just turned up), I have had to "self educate" to achieve a modicum of understanding of this wonderful thing called music.

I had a great degree of difficulty getting answers to problems like "avoid" notes (a poor terminology really) and things like minor scale choices for harmony, arranging and improvisation, key centres and modal music, so when I had a few quid, I bought everything and anything I could to satisfy my thirst for knowledge.

Because of copyright probs etc, I can't upload most of it on to here unfortunately. But if you PM me your email address, I will "lend" you an electronic copy of that document.

It is fairly basic, but very informative and as you can see, easy reading.

I still believe that Mark Levine and his book on Jazz Theory is the most comprehensive I have come across. But even so, it is still missing in some areas.
Especially if you have OCD for musical knowledge - as I do

The best jazz educational publication I have is by [url="http://www.barryharris.com/"](link here)[/url] Barry Harris, who is a great educator and a brilliant musician and man, still teaching for no financial reward in New York at the age of 80. A DVD (4 hours) with him in a practical class allied to a superb book which explains in depth all of his theories (and he turns a few previous conventional ideas upside down) has been the most impressive I have in my library. You can borrow that too, if you like. He certainly puts a different take on Jazz theory. He actually played at the Vanguard (still does) and sat in with Charlie Parker et al.

I have written this last bit with the intent of introducing Barry Harris to anyone who hasn't heard about him and wants to learn. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Harris"]Here is his impressive C.V.[/url], and profile.

Rob[/quote]
I will look further into this guy Barry Harris and also Mark Levine when I have a moment spare - many thanks for the info.

I suppose my educational experience was the opposite to yours - 4 years of "classical" music college where I was filled with so many RULES and stylistic constraints that, to this day, i still feel, when i solo in a jazz setting, that my "diatonic" straight-laced upbringing is holding me back. I want to break free from this - but its hard. Its sort of ingrained in me. I watch and listen to people like Laurence Cottle and Jeff Berlin and try to get under their skin but usually fail !

The Major