Camera or Camcorder?

[Chienmortbb]

I need to get some good photos and videos of the band. 
 

I know that the latest DSLR cameras do good video recording as well as supermen still but as far as I can see, the have limited video run time. Is this true? 
 

Secondly Which option would work well

under the far from adequate gig lighting we use?

 

please keep your answers gerberuc an not brandy specific. As a former Panasonic employee, I get a gear discount so it will be a choice between Panasonic LUMIX  or Camcorder. 

[fleabag]

Limited runtime is a thing with my Nikons, ( about 15 or 20 mins ) so i guess it may well be a thing with all DSLRs that also do video.  A camcorder would be better in that respect but how long do you need an interrupted video recording to be ?

 

You only need enough recording time for the length of any track.  3 or 4 minutes, unless you're a prog rock extended songs crew.

 

If you only need to record regular songs, a DSLR will be fine, as long as you stop the recording after each song.  The limit then is just the card storage.  Get a big one.

If you can  get deals on a Pansonic, i would go down that route.

 

The lighting would be troublesome for either option,  depending how bad it is.  You may need to up the ISO but as you know, high ISO introduces digital noise.

 

Experiment first

[Al Krow]

To deal with low lighting, get a decent chip size if you can 1" , 4/3, or APS-C - that will help get much better low light pictures and videos, and reduce "noise". 

 

Get a model with a separate input for an external microphone - camera in-built microphones don't tend to be that good. 

 

Mirrorless should be just fine, you don't necessarily need to step up to the bulkier DSLR.

[zbd1960]

My camera is a mirrorless Nikon Z6, which can do 4K video. I think the video length limit is 30 mins. You can plug in an external mike. Or, you can record sound separately on a digital recorder then sync it in post-production using editing software. Just be aware that video, especially 4K eats storage. You'll need both a big memory card and a fast one.  

[ped]

I’d lean towards having better audio than video. 4K I’d suggest isn’t necessary. 

[Happy Jack]

Paging @Silvia Bluejay

[Chienmortbb]

52 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Paging @Silvia Bluejay

Why didn’t Ibthinknof that. 

[Silvia Bluejay]

DSLRs have a max recording time of 29 mins 59 secs, to avoid being classed as video cameras (which are allowed to record over 30 mins) and having to pay additional duty (in the US or worldwide, IDK). Unless you have a person manning the camera throughout the entire gig, I wouldn't recommend using one of those, except occasionally.

It is true that the bigger the sensor, the better the image, as it can catch more light. However, we find that the lack of flexibility (recording time, size, weight) of the DSLR is more of a problem than the slightly grainier output we get from small, lightweight, dedicated video cameras. We tend to use a DSLR only to record outdoors footage in addition to our four Zoom Q2n 4Ks which we place at the front, back and both sides of the band.

To sum up our experience:

- Record the whole gig, don't choose in advance. Something weird and possibly wonderful may happen at any time during the performance.

- Therefore, you need something that can record 3-4 hours uninterruptedly.

- Use more than one camera, place them at different angles, learn how to video edit on the computer.

- If low light is a problem, try to increase the light, not decrease the number of cameras or use unsuitable devices.

 

Anything else, ask away!

 

[Silvia Bluejay]

Oh, forgot to mention the audio: DSLR audio is usually dreadful, while mini-video-camera audio can be all right if the camera is designed with music recording capabilities in the first place (do not use a Go Pro for that). However, what we now do is record from the desk (manned by me, so usually carrying good mix and EQ) and then mix in the drums when we only mic the kick, and the audience noise, usually taking it from the mini-camera at the front. That gives us the best results.

[Chienmortbb]

Thanks for that. I will order a new camcorder. I have one, but it is not ideal, It's a Full HD one. I will order either the HC-VX1EB-K or the HC-VXF1EB-K. Then I can do a two camera shoot with both locked off.  The HC-VX1EB-K has an external mic input, but I can also record the audio separately.

 

Can you elaborate on how you do the audio recording?

 

 

[Silvia Bluejay]

When we use the DSLR we connect it to a camera micro-mixer (2 channels) and to a Røde shotgun mic, but undoubtedly the best results come through our feed from the XR18. I think @Happy Jack uses either the headphone socket or two dedicated AUX outputs into our Zoom H4n. He then mixes the H4n direct input recording and its stereo mic recording with the room noise from one or more of the Zoom Q2ns, depending on the position of each with respect to the band.

[Happy Jack]

Stereo jack split into two mono jacks going from the Headphones Out on the PA into the L/R Inputs on a Zoom H4n.

 

I place the recorder as near the drums as I can, so the L/R microphones on the H4n can pick up snare & hi-hat (we always mic up the kick).

[Chienmortbb]

22 minutes ago, Happy Jack said:

Stereo jack split into two mono jacks going from the Headphones Out on the PA into the L/R Inputs on a Zoom H4n.

 

I place the recorder as near the drums as I can, so the L/R microphones on the H4n can pick up snare & hi-hat (we always mic up the kick).

Are you using more than one H4n? I have to be honest, my brain is scrambled trying to imagine what you and @Silvia Bluejayare telling me.

Edited May 9, 2023 by Chienmortbb

[Happy Jack]

We use 4no Zoom Q2n 4k video recorders, and 1no Zoom H4n audio recorder.

[wateroftyne]

If budget is tight, and you want something useable, get some pals in and shoot it handheld with phones. They tend to be stabilised and have better dynamic range than zoom stuff, which in gig lighting is either very noisy, or blows out the highlights. You can always drop the audio in from a zoom recorder.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by wateroftyne

[skidder652003]

The 30 minute limit on DSLR's is a drag, however there is a way around it (although it may only work on canon cameras)

I use magic Lantern softwate installed on the cameras memory card ( in my case a 64GB card in a Canon 5D mk 2)

This enables the camera (amongst a whole host of other extra features) to stay on for as long as the battery allows.

I use a double battery pack with the camera and if I change the batteries during the midway interval at a gig I get the whole 2 hour show on one card.

That allows me to switch on and leave alone while I get on with the playing.

I can't comment on the Panasonic range but I imagine the new stuff will be fantastic.

For what its worth the canon 5D mk 2 with a good lens even in 1080 blows any camcorder out of the water for quality of image (think film quality if you like) and is superb under low or stage light conditions.

Even the built in mic is actually very good but as others have said we also record direct from the desk these days.

Your panasonic stuff will give you good pics and video but probably pants sound so factor in a field recorder (they're cheap) to capture decent sound unless you have a mixing desk capable of capturing your bands performance.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tascam-DR-05X-Portable-Audio-Recorder/dp/B07N1HGVNS/ref=asc_df_B07N1HGVNS/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310826954370&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2023319722877618593&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045324&hvtargid=pla-644764714442&psc=1&th=1&psc=1

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by skidder652003

[Chienmortbb]

Do you record every gig? I can get two of the Q2ns for about the same cost as a decent camcorder, although that would be more versatile for other uses.

[skidder652003]

5 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Do you record every gig? I can get two of the Q2ns for about the same cost as a decent camcorder, although that would be more versatile for other uses.

The sound on those are really good, but I found the non 4K version pretty awful as far as video quality goes.

However the newer 4K versions may be better. Another advantage of those is that you can hook up a USB battery pack and record it for the whole show and not have to use stupid AA batteries.

Happy Jack will know better than I about how well th 4K works in low light or stage lights, but as I said the audio is excellent and they will run the whole show not 30 minutes like most cameras.

Plus with 2 you get 2 different shots so that makes it more interesting when you edit ( nobody wants to look at 1 aspect for a whole song! )

[fleabag]

You can get external mics for DSLR's or Mirrorless.  You aren't forced to use the built in mic

 

There's plenty to choose from too.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/CVM-V30-LITE-Microphone-Super-Cardioid-Condenser/dp/B07DWW3RWD/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=dslr+microphone&qid=1683698677&sr=8-3

[fleabag]

On 08/05/2023 at 18:02, fleabag said:

Limited runtime is a thing with my Nikons, ( about 15 or 20 mins )

 

 

I double checked my own bodies manuals, and Sylvia is correct about 30 minute record time, but this only applies to my full frame Nikon D810.  My Crop D7000 only does 20 mins.

[Chienmortbb]

Thanks for the info. The audio on the cameras will be used for timing only. The main audio will be recorded via the digital mixer. I will try sending the output to one of the cameras but it is a long unbalanced lead so there may be issues?

 

As fot post production, is OBS any good? 

 

 

[Silvia Bluejay]

17 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

The sound on those are really good, but I found the non 4K version pretty awful as far as video quality goes.

However the newer 4K versions may be better. Another advantage of those is that you can hook up a USB battery pack and record it for the whole show and not have to use stupid AA batteries.

You are correct, the non-4k version was dreadful on several levels, but luckily it has been discontinued. The Q2n 4k is a very good device for the price. We use ours on clamps or tall monopods and power them through external battery packs and USB leads. We use 256GB micro-SD cards and re-format them after every gig.

[skidder652003]

17 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Thanks for the info. The audio on the cameras will be used for timing only. The main audio will be recorded via the digital mixer. I will try sending the output to one of the cameras but it is a long unbalanced lead so there may be issues?

 

As fot post production, is OBS any good? 

 

 

OBS as I remember using it was for live streaming mainly .

For post production video,  (ie matching your desk audio to your video cameras and doing some basic scene transitions ),  the best by far that is free is DaVinci Resolve (The free version). However its a heck of a learning curve and I and many others on here have been using Reaper (there's a free unlimited trial version) thats is super fast for matching several video cameras to a single master audio and doing multiple camera angles onto one master track. 

There's also loads of super useful videos to show you how to do it on Youtube, and its easy once you've done one or two.

Here's an example of my shower

https://www.facebook.com/jeffersonarchive/videos/752899556047043

[Phil Starr]

14 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

.

Here's an example of my shower

https://www.facebook.com/jeffersonarchive/videos/752899556047043

Why does no-one show the bass player

[fleabag]

Cos being in the limelight is for those with low esteem. 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by fleabag