Space between neck heel and body.

[edstraker123]

I sold a guitar on ebay and the buyer has returned it as there is a space between the neck heel and body. The guitar is a quality Maton acoustic, has been stored in its case and has probably seen less than 20 hours of use. Googling I can't get a sense of whether this is just a cosmetic issue due to temperature or humidity or a more series structural problem.

Anybody got any thoughts?

( Sorry for posting a guitar question !)

[songofthewind]

I thought at first this was an issue with a bolt on (but not glued) style neck joint, which is found on many good quality acoustic guitars today. However, Maton say all their acoustics have a dovetail joint, and I'm not able to find any images of a Mason neck joint.

Looking closely at the pictures, there appears to be an uneven separation of the heel at the bottom, as if a glued joint has split and left fragments stuck to the body. In a bolt on configuration, there would be no glue required.

Therefore, I am inclined to suggest that the neck requires a reset.

 

I'm basing what I am saying on extensive experience of dealing with neck resets on several Tacoma bolt on neck guitars, and obviously others may have something different to say.

 

I had the great pleasure of unlimited access to Tommy Emanuel's famous Mouse guitar for several days, and it was absolutely wonderful, and beautifully made. This is not my experience of other Maton guitars. 

 

[Ralf1e]

I thought at first glance of your 2nd photo the timber was badly cut but having blown up said photo I believe songofthewind is spot on with diagnoses and solution

[edstraker123]

Do you think Maton should replace the guitar given how little use its had and its cost ?

[songofthewind]

Have you contacted them and shown them pictures?

[Downunderwonder]

Hope it is the same guitar you sent!

[edstraker123]

Yes it was a reputable buyer. I felt ashamed for selling it to him like this tbh. I contacted Maton who said the UK distributor would contact me but nothing from them so far.

I'll give it the rest of the weekend and then get back in touch.

On closer inspection there is more wrong than the gap - it is almost like the neck has moved a couple of mm to so created a small overhang. 😞

[Andyjr1515]

9 hours ago, edstraker123 said:

 

On closer inspection there is more wrong than the gap - it is almost like the neck has moved a couple of mm to so created a small overhang. 😞

An overhang where?  Which direction do you think the neck has moved?

 

Putting that to one side until you are able to clarify, then - as it is a dovetail joint - from the photos, it is more likely to be some natural or humidity/heat movement in last inch of the heel, beyond where the dovetail finishes.  If so, then it is unlikely to be a structural issue as the neck geometry is all about the joint security around the dovetail itself. 

 

Because of how these types of dovetails work, the joint tightens quickly and securely as the neck is hammered into place, literally pulling the heel up tight against the guitar sides (and heel block behind it).

 

But the reverse is also true: if the neck starts lifting out of the dovetail joint (and it would have to take the fretboard with it) then it gets very loose very quickly.

 

So - if the heel above that gap is still tight against the body sides (and it looks it from the photo) and the fretboard hasn't parted from the body between the heel and sound hole, then the dovetail and neck will most likely be still firmly in place and the neck joint will be secure.

 

But, as I asked at the beginning, if you have found other gaps in other places, then that might be an issue...

 

Can you post a shot of what it is that you are looking at in terms of an overhang?

 

 

[Andyjr1515]

Further to the above, this probably better illustrates the two possible conditions. 

 

If the joint is tight in the area referred to in box 1, then it is simply a cosmetic issue of the small gap at the end and whether to hide it or not. 

 

If the joint in the area shown in box 1 does have a gap, then the neck is coming loose and that will need properly sorting.

 

 

 

 

You can see here below where the dovetail itself finishes on the heel.  The rest is just an overhang that is a convenient place to put a strap button   :

  

 

[Downunderwonder]

3 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

The rest is just an overhang that is a convenient place to put a strap button 

I dunno, it would make the join that much more robust when you use it to bash your drummer over the head.

[Downunderwonder]

I am reading all this to mean the neck is held on by fancy schmancy woodwork with no glue?

 

Was the heel flush with the bottom of the guitar body before? If it isn't now and it was before, that would be a very good indication of drift of the joint.

[Ralf1e]

It is difficult to tell from the photos but my OCD tells me the bottom of that heel may have curled away from the body where the dovetail ends.

When you look from sideways on at a right angle to the join does what you see confirm this? Is that a straight line at that point.

Maybe you can photo that for us to see.

[edstraker123]

Hi,

Thanks for all the replies so far.

The photos below show the overhang - I'd say it was about 1mm so you can definitely feel it if you rubbed your finger over it. The joint itself seems to be solid and doesn't get worse if you put pressure on it. In terms of heat / humidity - the guitar is one in a row of guitars/ basses /other instruments kept in cases in a row in my bedroom. Nothing else in decades has ever been affected here. There is an ortega hydra twin neck uke in the same area with no adverse affects. To me instruments would have to endure much harsher environments and changes than this, so if that is what has caused it it wasn't fit for purpose IMHO. The worse thing is it may have always been like this and was only spotted by a pro luthier as part of a set up.

The action on the guitar isn't terrible and tonally it sounds great and is flawless other than this.

Edited May 14, 2023 by edstraker123

[Ralf1e]

Thank you

Its not a straight line it is curling away

Totally end on to that join would have been more helpful but bottom line from where I am sat is .

Throw it back at them. It has warped being not seasoned enough for fit purpose.

It happens when kilns are used instead of years.

Whatever way it is wrong It is wrong and should not happen

Edited May 14, 2023 by Ralf1e
added detail

[NancyJohnson]

There's a guy on You Tube (channel name @twoodford) who does some frankly fantastic work on acoustics - a lot of which (kind of) have similar separation issues to yours.

 

There's been some fairly interesting recent work done on a pair of 80 year old Gibson acoustics, a lot of focus on neck removals and resetting; the dovetail tenon joints on both really weren't that accurate and while you're looking for a reasonably tight fit in both the tenon AND where the heel meets the body, he's very much of the opinion that Gibson (and others) would get reasonable tenon fit and literally fill the joint with shims and use either hyde (animal) or fish glue to ensure any gaps from the manufacturing process were filled.

 

Scroll along to the 25 minute point on the video below.  Jikes.

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by NancyJohnson

[edstraker123]

Guitar has gone to Maton's UK distributor who is having it assessed by a luthier in London tomorrow. Fingers crossed they will replace it. 😬

[edstraker123]

Still waiting for an update - emails being ignored . Dreadful customer service.

 

Thet had actually gone to my spam folder - so my fault !

Edited June 12, 2023 by edstraker123

[edstraker123]

I finally got the guitar back today which has been repaired completely invisibly. They did mention the fact that they saw I had sold the guitar and that would have voided my warranty so they did the job as a goodwill gesture so I guess I can't complain, especially as the work which has been carried out  was so good. They said it was the humidity in my house which caused the issue ,but I'm still not convinced about this given the numerous guitars and basses stored in the same place for decades with no issues. A happy ending of sorts.😀

I'll buy carbon next time !