Why are we still doing this?

[joel406]

I've been playing and gigging for a long, long time. And I'm as old-school as it gets. I've spent years and thousands of dollars on amps. But a year ago I decided to make the switch to in-ear monitors. I started out using a pre-amp pedal. Running straight to the board. Then of course to my in-ears. I finally found a EQ  setting that was perfect. Then I moved to an amp modeler. Wow. The mix I have is perfect. Venue to venue I only need to adjust a few volumes and It's just the same great sound every show. Now as I said I'm "old-school". Love my amps. Mesa Boogie. Epifani. What's not to like. Well the amp sim has quit the selection. I'm currently running Aguilar DB751 with a Darkglass 212 neo cab. Compressor, parametric EQ, noise gates and high pass, low pass filters and chorus. That's output one. Output two is clean. Dry signal. Sound from FOH is amazing. 

 

I use either my 5 driver ears, or my 8 driver ears. Both get the job done.

 

So why are/is anyone still doing this?

 

Using ANY amps. The only thing I use amps for these days is rehearsal. Simply because there's usually no wifi setup so I can mix myself. But it's rehearsal. WE need to communicate. In-ears are isolating. So, with them in it's hard to talk. But on stage they can't be beat.

 

Amps are obsolete. And even the best of em can't beat the sound of in-ear monitoring. 

 

Of you are considering in-ears. Nobody needs more than a nice 5 driver set. Companies out there are advertising up to 21 drivers per side. At a cost of over $3000.00 USD.

 

Mine were made by the company that does the band YES. And Kansas. As well as a host of other international acts. And mine are the top of their line. Less than $1000.00 USD. 

 

Alien Ears | Alien Ears custom in ear monitors

 

Custom fitted. Incredible sound. 

 

An amp less stage is so awesome.

 

Why would anyone still use an amp?

 

As far as which amp sim is best? That is 100% subjective. And that world is getting bigger everyday. My band is comprised of a lead singer, drummer, myself(bass) and 2 guitar players. Both guitar players and myself use the Quadcortex. the tone is the best of all amp sims available. Again. Subjective.

 

Do yourselves a favor.

 

Ditch the amps.

[DGBass]

I would describe myself as pretty much old school and have been playing and gigging for decades. I've seen the power in modern amp modellers and profilers, Kempers in particular and yes they do have good points and I can appreciate why touring bands would benefit from an identical setup each and every gig because its all digitally stored and backed up on a solid state device. Also saves them from dragging lots of gear around on tour. IEM's are of great interest to me but will never happen in my current band basically because everyone else is old school and skint. Our guitarist is never ever going to be persuaded to give up his Rivera Fender Super Champ for a modeller and our pub/club gigs don't warrant the investment in an IEM system or a good enough PA to put everyone through without blowing it up.

Probably the main reason I will always use amps is because they have a certain something even a Kemper or any modeller can't emulate. An amp thats designed to do only one thing well will always trump a box of integrated circuits thats designed to be a jack of all trades. It's a tactile thing as well. For example, My Trace Elliot AH250 is admittedly a beast to load in, but stack it on top of a cab, fire up the blacklight and hear that big 5 inch fan whirring in to life and the smell from it after nearly forty years of gigging in smokey bars is impressively nostalgic. And when the power comes and slams you in the kidneys in the way only an old Trace Elliot mosfet powerd amp can do, its all part of the gigging experience. And its still going strong after nearly forty years. Will the average current IEM setup or modeller still be going strong in forty years time? Well thats up for debate but I know my AH250 will outlast me! Players need to have fun as well, for me its not just all about what you hear in your ears.

My AH250 also only cost me £60 used, the used bass cab was free and most of my budget was invested in a good driver for it. And it all works great and sound the same to me every gig. I wish I had thousands to spend and most of my band would like to be in that position as well.

Amp simulators are well simulators. Not the real thing. I'd get fairly bored with a single kemper or modeller on my amp shelf. I like my Trace Elliots, my Ashdowns, and my GK's. They all do bass in a slightly different way but are all enjoyable to use individually and have their own quirks. Yes it would be easier scrolling three clicks one way or the other on a modeller but wheres the fun in that? Amps on stage and bands who don't use IEM's will be around for a long while yet I would predict. At the end of the day its all personal choice really and choice is good. It's all good.

I'd love to try a good IEM setup and have a good PA only setup to back up our band but I know I'd miss that cool vibe of having my own rig thumping away behind me and flapping my flares all gig long while still being able to communicate easily with the other band members during and between songs 😁

[Downunderwonder]

IEM has never rated a mention in any of my bands or offered at any of my gigs where sound is provided. I would be a very lonely bassist if I were to ditch amps for IEM.

[Jack]

There's a difference I think between shifting your sound to pedalboards/preamps/modellers and being truly 'ampless' as in not bringing any of your own stage volume. I'm ampless in that I don't use and amp, I use a Helix straight into the PA, but I'm not ampless in that I bring a QSC wedge, which provides as much stage volume as we need. My bands are not switching to IEMs any time soon (one guitarist is out of the lot of us across two bands) but even if everybody else did then I'm the soundman so I need to hear the room.

 

There are also, and this is shocking, people who aren't me. Plenty of people play as full-time deps or in weird situations, I can see why bringing an amp that can blow the doors off any venue could be reassuring if you don't know what you're walking in to.

[Phil Starr]

7 hours ago, joel406 said:

I've been playing and gigging for a long, long time. And I'm as old-school as it gets. I've spent years and thousands of dollars on amps. But a year ago I decided to make the switch to in-ear monitors. I started out using a pre-amp pedal. Running straight to the board. Then of course to my in-ears. I finally found a EQ  setting that was perfect. Then I moved to an amp modeler. Wow. The mix I have is perfect. Venue to venue I only need to adjust a few volumes and It's just the same great sound every show. Now as I said I'm "old-school". Love my amps. Mesa Boogie. Epifani. What's not to like. Well the amp sim has quit the selection. I'm currently running Aguilar DB751 with a Darkglass 212 neo cab. Compressor, parametric EQ, noise gates and high pass, low pass filters and chorus. That's output one. Output two is clean. Dry signal. Sound from FOH is amazing. 

 

An amp less stage is so awesome.

 

Why would anyone still use an amp?

 

Do yourselves a favor.

 

Ditch the amps.

I've just made this move with my band, I think no-one who has done this and cares about their sound would ever willingly go back. There is absolutely no way on earth that you can get a clean sound out front when the guitar, drums and even bass are significantly louder on stage than the human voice. We spend fortunes and invest hours in getting our sound and then can't pick ourselves out of the mix so no-one on stage or in the audience ever gets to hear that perfection. (the sound, not my playing  )

 

There's a thrill in sheer volume of course, feeling the stage vibrate, trousers flapping and all that adrenaline flowing but the cost is permanent hearing loss and early retirement from music far too often.

 

People stick to what they know and what they can get to work and cling to backline and vocals through PA. It's like driving a vintage car though, fun on a summers day but you wouldn't use a model T to commute into London every day. 

 

@Downunderwonder makes a good point; you'll need to carry some backline for a while yet, but if you are in an established band what are you doing?

[fretmeister]

I can't ditch them.

 

My band doesn't have a PA. I mean that literally. We don't own one and we don't use one either.

 

20+ trumpets / trombones / saxes of all types / clarinets don't need PA support. 

It's only the bass and the electric piano that need amplification.

[Lozz196]

As all of my gigs are through FOH from now on I’m just using my Sansamp. If there’s a provided amp then I’ll plug into that, if not then it’s bass through the monitors. Not the preference of my ears, but of my back. 

[thodrik]

I am probably in the minority but my interest in old school bass amps from the 1970s through to the mid 2000s outweighs my interest in bass guitars. I am always far more likely to buy an amp or a cab than I am a bass guitar. 

My main interest areas are generally either heavy rock or old school blues where artists are generally sticking to the traditional amplification routes. 

Yes, with modern technology there is the ability to gig with in-ears and if I was gigging in a group that required me to use them then I definitely would and definitely would if I was in an international touring act, but I'm not. I am also aware that in a gigging scenario my amp is essentially just a personal monitor and the FOH is receiving a different signal altogether. However, in most scenarios I still prefer that to having in ears or using a EQ/DI pedal and using a wedge monitor. 

At this point I play music for pleasure and it brings me more pleasure to use an actual amp than in ears or amp modulations of the amps I already own. As a result I will generally use one unless requested otherwise. When I am paid for a gig though I generally do whatever is asked of me without fuss.

For context I am 36 and still able to lift stuff and my hearing is still good, my answer in 20 years time might well be fairly different! 
 

[police squad]

I recently went IEM for my 80s duo. I've always used a vox tonelab pedal for the guitar, into the PA. We used a small behringer monitor. It all worked very well.

But since going IEM, I love it. I can move around the stage area and my monitoring is the same. The same great balance. A simple 'FOH' sound is all I need.

I use the same set up with the full band version of the duo. Everything is in the PA and I still get the FOH sound in my ears. We're not particulary loud on stage, drummer is great and can really reign the volume in if required. Bass player is the same. No egos here and no mega volume

 

I'm depping with someome next week and I'm pretty sure my IEMs won't be any good here, I'll take my ear plugs and my very light RM500 Evo II plus RM 4x10

[la bam]

I've gone this route after years of thinking about it. However.... the biggest revelation wasnt that iems are better in themselves or anything else, it was the fact that it's the amps that have been the problem for listening to everyone all these years. Get rid of the amps off stage and I reckon you can even play without iems if you can hear the pa.

[BigRedX]

36 minutes ago, la bam said:

Get rid of the amps off stage and I reckon you can even play without iems if you can hear the pa.

 

One of the bands I play with ditched on-stage amplification last year, and although we haven't gone for IEM yet, simply getting rid of lots of conflicting sound sources on stage has done wonders for both what we and our audience hears. Admittedly with a line up of vocals, synths and bass VI live with drums and additional synths on the backing it's been easier for us than the typical band. We played a small "festival" (in a pub) last year where the foldback was a single tiny wedge monitor - no problem - we just angled the main PA cabs slightly back so we could hear them and ended up playing one of the best gigs we have done. 

[la bam]

16 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

One of the bands I play with ditched on-stage amplification last year, and although we haven't gone for IEM yet, simply getting rid of lots of conflicting sound sources on stage has done wonders for both what we and our audience hears. Admittedly with a line up of vocals, synths and bass VI live with drums and additional synths on the backing it's been easier for us than the typical band. We played a small "festival" (in a pub) last year where the foldback was a single tiny wedge monitor - no problem - we just angled the main PA cabs slightly back so we could hear them and ended up playing one of the best gigs we have done. 

 

Yes, works great. 

Edited May 12, 2023 by la bam

[joel406]

Lots of great replies.

 

Lots of "opinions".

 

But!

 

One fact remains.

 

I have been a professional Bassist for a long time. Toured for a lot of people. Used so many amps for so many years. Making the comparison between using amps vs in-ears is a comparison I can make from an educated point of view. 

 

In-ears are the future. They make your sound viable. On stage amplification is detrimental to the sound you "want" the audience to hear. Stage monitors(wedges) are no different. The quiet stage is the stage that sounds the best. Amps are only used for on stage monitors. And are inefficient. If you move anywhere on stage your mix changes. Things become either overbearing or disappear altogether. In-ears eliminate all of this. 

 

From the smallest POS pub to the biggest stadiums. In-ears are the only viable solution. 

 

I get what people are saying above this post. If you don't like em, or if you feel they are unnecessary. Or if you just don't believe they aren't all they are cracked up to be.

 

You're wrong.

 

And no venue anywhere will ever offer them. 

 

In-ears are user specific. Molded and fit to the user's own ears. They will not properly fit anyone else's ears. 

 

Time to come fully into the 21st century people. In-ears, amp modeling, are the better option. And yes. The amp sims are superior to the actual amps. 

 

Like I said. Both our guitar players and myself. Use the Quadcortex. It "IS" the amp killer. 

 

And if ya got an amp you just love more than your own children. The QC is "the" kit that can capture it perfectly. And allow you to take that amp with you wherever you go. All in a small pedal. But straight outa the box. The QC runs circles around any amp out there. 

 

Yeah! it's that good.

[fretmeister]

22 minutes ago, joel406 said:

 

 

I get what people are saying above this post. If you don't like em, or if you feel they are unnecessary. Or if you just don't believe they aren't all they are cracked up to be.

 

You're wrong.

 

 

so tell me, if we don’t have a PA and don’t need one because only 2 out of about 25 of us are amplified, how am I wrong?

 

 

[thodrik]

Make Amps Great Again.

[police squad]

31 minutes ago, joel406 said:

 

 

I get what people are saying above this post. If you don't like em, or if you feel they are unnecessary. Or if you just don't believe they aren't all they are cracked up to be.

 

You're wrong.

 

 

I like this man.

I almost spat my tea out when I read that.

 

I think you're right here but one of the guitar things and amps, you do need a certain amount of volume to make the guitar feedback, if that's you bag. As a guitarist too, I enjoy that air movement and the guitar vibrating. That just doesn't happen on a silent stage but I just get on with it.

 

I am yet to play bass this way but I do have a tech21 thing that sounds like an ampeg and I hope to try it at some point.

 

I also appreciate that some people don't agree but the IEM mix, as you move about, doesn't change which as the singer is lovely.

I have pretty bad tinnitus these days and have IEM because occasionally the on stage sound is too loud (thinking small pubs here, right next to the drummer etc) So I gave it a go. I was hooked from gig number one

Edited May 12, 2023 by police squad
added more spiele

[Reggaebass]

What no massive valve amp with trouser flapping cabs, never 😁

[lemmywinks]

FoH mix is a breeze when all you have to worry about is an acoustic drum kit, a lot issues that plague amateur bands doing their own PA just disappeared overnight when we ditched backline as well as a drastic reduction in setup times (which is still on a downward curve btw!). Add that to the consistently great monitor mix I have regardless of what room we're in and the minimal gear I need to take there's no going back.

[Lozz196]

55 minutes ago, thodrik said:

Make Amps Great Again.

 

42 minutes ago, Reggaebass said:

What no massive valve amp with trouser flapping cabs, never 😁

Def my preferred choice, however sadly no longer an option. Bah 

[BassmanPaul]

What I term my small PA has a 1KW Class D power amp, a Mackie mixer and an IEM transmitter with five receivers. When I'm using it my bass amp with it's Acme two ten drivers becomes my subwoofer. It works well but I much prefer the 'openness' of my bass amp doing its thing. To each their own.

[msb]

I mostly do mid sized bars , more often than not only the vocals are in the PA so my amp delivers the room sound. 
No sound man. 
(and I love my amp)

[JPJ]

So like the OP, I’ve shlepped mammoth bass rigs around for years, but as the years advance, I’ve had to scale back and now mainly gig a 1x15 Neo equipped combo with support from a matching 1x15 Neo extension cab. 
I’m on the cusp of going down the IEM route (almost inevitable with one band) but have held off mainly because as well as being the bassist, I’m also the sound engineer and it’s just more to set up and dial in before each gig.

That said, last weekend I played a gig at a small social club. Upstairs room, probably 150 capacity. I took the combo and extension cab. Small stage so I was stood right in front of my ‘stack’ so much so that I could feel the air movement from the port in the combo on the back of my arm. IEM’s may indeed be the future but I think I’ll miss the physicality of the sound coming from a bass rig. 

[asingardenof]

Personally I can't stand anything in my ears, eg earbuds, and on the few occasions I have tried them they've had a tendency to fall out. Think I'll be sticking to an old school approach for the foreseeable future.

[joeystrange]

5 hours ago, joel406 said:

The quiet stage is the stage that sounds the best.

Of course the best sound is entirely subjective.

 

I love seeing a punk rock band in a basement dive bar with amps so loud that I can’t hear anything as much as I love the crystal clear sound of my IEM mix.

[Jack]

38 minutes ago, asingardenof said:

Personally I can't stand anything in my ears, eg earbuds, and on the few occasions I have tried them they've had a tendency to fall out. Think I'll be sticking to an old school approach for the foreseeable future.

Proper moulds will make them not fall out, I'm the same with anything short of customer earplugs, headphones etc fall out. As for preferences, fair enough.