Why are we still doing this?

[Frank Blank]

The Batchworth parish covers much of Rickmansworth, including the town centre.

[Waddo Soqable]

The name Rickmansworth derives from the Saxon.. Ryckmer presumably the lord or owner, and Worth a farm or stockade. 

[0175westwood29]

id love to be able to go in ears, but i love having a big amp as back up.

 

also im not playing big enough venues yet to be able to really go ampless, theres a real issue in a smaller venue for ppl at the front that simply arent in the right place for the pa and all they get is drums....

 

im also def a supporter of having a comfortable stage volume tho! yeh i have a 215 but i also have a volume control......

[warwickhunt]

1 minute ago, 0175westwood29 said:

...theres a real issue in a smaller venue for ppl at the front that simply arent in the right place for the pa and all they get is drums....

 

Interesting point.  I said the same thing to our guitarist who is the PA owner and advocate for IEM and he reckons the spread of PA is way better than the beaming of guitar/bass in small venues.  Stand to my side out front and you get bass and drum, his side and you get guitar and drums.  

[0175westwood29]

10 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

Interesting point.  I said the same thing to our guitarist who is the PA owner and advocate for IEM and he reckons the spread of PA is way better than the beaming of guitar/bass in small venues.  Stand to my side out front and you get bass and drum, his side and you get guitar and drums.  

def a point to it for sure, but if im dead centre of the pa speakers in front of the stage you get drums and very little else.

 

when your about 10ft from the sateg what hes saying makes alot of sense! but also on stage i like to feel the bass tbh ( yeh i know that sounds dumb but i do) iems dont do that.

[JPJ]

15 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

Stand to my side out front and you get bass and drum, his side and you get guitar and drums.  

Or reverse the panning and confuse the hell out of your audience 😂

[warwickhunt]

5 minutes ago, JPJ said:

Or reverse the panning and confuse the hell out of your audience 😂

 

Jeez, I don't want them thinking I make all that racket and mistakes!  

 

[Skinnyman]

We went down the IEM route last year, even though we play exclusively small pub gigs.
 

Before that, with a loud drummer and an equally loud guitarist, the monitor volumes were stupid and the vocalist still couldn’t hear herself. 
 

I was using a set of ACS moulded plugs that I’ve had for years so I just got the IEM earphones they do that fit into the moulded plugs where the attenuator/filter thingy sits. 
 

We invested in a wireless mixer (which we ended up using with a tethered usb connection to a tablet on account of WiFi dropouts - if we were doing this again, I’d just get the Zoom mixer), which allows six individual mixes to be sent and each of us has got a cheapo Behringer headphone amp and earphones.
 

Instant bliss.

 

We’ve never sounded better out front and we’re so much tighter now that we can hear each other and ourselves properly. 
 

I’m a convert but - and here’s the great thing - we’ve also played gigs with a hybrid setup where not everyone was using IEMs. We played one, for example, where the bass went through an amp/cab - we still took a DI feed to the mixer so it could be mixed into the individual mixes even though none of the signal went through to FOH.
 

So….there are many different ways to use the technology now available to us and none of them is “right” and none of them is “wrong”.

 

Vive la difference, eh?

[Stub Mandrel]

Our guitarist went emulator and IEMs yesterday.

 

We had to have a monitor for me and the drummer which largely negated the benefits. It was also too loud for me but ok for drummer.

[taunton-hobbit]

 

😎

[fretmeister]

On 14/05/2023 at 12:07, Stub Mandrel said:

Our guitarist went emulator and IEMs yesterday.

 

We had to have a monitor for me and the drummer which largely negated the benefits. It was also too loud for me but ok for drummer.

 

 

It does seem to be an 'everybody or nobody' thing to make it work properly.

[BigRedX]

There are two separate issues at play here:

 

Firstly the importance or not of having amps and speakers for the individual instruments on stage. IME if everything is going through the PA then at best your amplification rig is a personal monitor and at worst a stage prop that could be messing up the on-stage sound. As soon as you have multiple single instrument sources on stage trying to arrange them on a typical stage, so that all the musicians are able to hear what is coming out of them is nigh on impossible anything but the smallest of venues, and if you look at the typical band setup most don't even bother. If they did, the amps would be placed at the sides of the stage pointing across, but when was the last time you saw that? Once you start having to put anything with its own amp into the foldback, you might as well dispense with on-stage instrument amps and give each musician their own wedge monitor and their own personal monitor mix.

 

Instrument amps only contribute to the sound of the instruments due to a historical accident, because amplified music became popular while the cheapest way of producing amps was using valves. Let's face it electrical engineers would never have purposely designed an amp to distort no matter how musically "pleasing" that sound may be. Their original intent was always to make the instrument sound louder without adding any additional colouration. This has also lead to the problem that both the amp and cabs become part of the instrument's sound which is a particular issue for bass players because the PA rarely mic's up the bass cabs and even if they do, they will also take a DI and you have no way of knowing which source is actually being used for the FoH sound. If you want the sort of colouration that ancient amplification operating outside of its intended parameter produces, then it makes far more sense to dispense with the on-stage amps and speakers and use signal processing instead to replicate the sound. These days IME in a band mix it is indistinguishable from the "real" thing. And. if you play in a band where having a large and impressive looking backline is still part of the image then get some light-weight, low-profile empty ones to use as stage props that take up less floor space on stage and can be folded away to save space for transport.

 

As you can probably tell, I've dispensed with a dedicated bass rig. I found that I was playing two types of venue - small ones where I was being asked to turn down so much so as not to overpower the FoH sound that I could barely hear myself from my rig compared with the bass sound coming out of the guitarist's wedge on the other side of the stage; or the large ones where even my big and impressive-looking rig couldn't even begin to cover the whole stage and once again I was mostly reliant on the foldback to be able to hear myself. I was asking myself what was the point of taking this rig to gigs (3 items that were all ideally a two-person carry) when most of it made no contribution to what myself or my audience were hearing? I now use a Helix for my sound and an FRFR cab for rehearsals and the very occasional gig where the PA is strictly vocals only. I've done only a handful of these types of gig with any of my originals bands in the last 25 years, and the FRFR has been a massive improvement in terms of dispersion (and consequently on-stage balance) compared with my much more expensive traditional bass rig. I've gone from having to be so loud on stage that I could barely hear the other instruments in order for the bass guitar to project into the audience, to being just slightly louder than I would normally choose.

 

So really the only bass players who need a traditional amplification rig are those who only play small-ish gigs with vocal-only PA systems, or those who play in bands where the majority of the other instruments don't require amplification (like big bands). It seems ironic then that much of the advertising for amplification relies on "big-name" endorsees for whom the equipment they are promoting has little real-world benefit.

 

The other issue is that of IEMs:

 

Neither of the two bands I currently play in have made the switch to IEMs even though I think both would benefit from it. One of the bands is definitely more open to the idea than the other, and I suspect that finances allowing, this one will be be using IEMs within the next 12 months.

 

The biggest problem I see with IEMs is that the band really need to be doing their own foldback mix to get the best out of them. Quite a few of the bands that I have shared the bill with over the last few years use IEMs and all of them take much longer to soundcheck and suffer form numerous problems integrating their system with the house PA at the venue. This becomes even more complicated if you are also using the IEMs for things such as click tracks which are not wanted in the FoH. When I make the change it will be because the band will have also added the equipment required to do our own on-stage monitor mix that can be kept completely separate from the FoH and include things like click tracks, count ins and other band-only cues.

 

 

TL:DR pretty much everyone who isn't playing in a small pub covers band with a vocal only PA would benefit from ditching the traditional backline and using IEMs. Ultimately it's going to produce a better sound on stage and FoH and overall there will be less equipment to carry and set up. It's early days yet but I suspect in 10 years time we'll be wondering why it was even necessary to discuss this.

 

[neepheid]

OP, try a carrot instead of a stick.

[Japhet]

I need a full sized amp and cabinet otherwise I'd miss out on all the pi55ed punters saying 'that looks heavy' as I'm trying to negotiate my way out of the venue while they all stand right in the way.

[Frank Blank]

26 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

There are two separate issues at play here...

 

👆this exactly.

 

The above post should be made some kind of reference for those thinking about FRFR. Excellent post.

[Frank Blank]

1 minute ago, Japhet said:

I need a full sized amp and cabinet otherwise I'd miss out on all the pi55ed punters saying 'that looks heavy' as I'm trying to negotiate my way out of the venue while they all stand right in the way.

 

That's about all they are any good for. 😀

[Phil Starr]

20 hours ago, BigRedX said:

There are two separate issues at play here:

 

Firstly the importance or not of having amps and speakers for the individual instruments on stage. IME if everything is going through the PA then at best your amplification rig is a personal monitor and at worst a stage prop that could be messing up the on-stage sound. As soon as you have multiple single instrument sources on stage trying to arrange them on a typical stage, so that all the musicians are able to hear what is coming out of them is nigh on impossible anything but the smallest of venues, and if you look at the typical band setup most don't even bother. If they did, the amps would be placed at the sides of the stage pointing across, but when was the last time you saw that? Once you start having to put anything with its own amp into the foldback, you might as well dispense with on-stage instrument amps and give each musician their own wedge monitor and their own personal monitor mix.

 

Instrument amps only contribute to the sound of the instruments due to a historical accident, because amplified music became popular while the cheapest way of producing amps was using valves. Let's face it electrical engineers would never have purposely designed an amp to distort no matter how musically "pleasing" that sound may be. Their original intent was always to make the instrument sound louder without adding any additional colouration. This has also lead to the problem that both the amp and cabs become part of the instrument's sound which is a particular issue for bass players because the PA rarely mic's up the bass cabs and even if they do, they will also take a DI and you have no way of knowing which source is actually being used for the FoH sound. If you want the sort of colouration that ancient amplification operating outside of its intended parameter produces, then it makes far more sense to dispense with the on-stage amps and speakers and use signal processing instead to replicate the sound. These days IME in a band mix it is indistinguishable from the "real" thing. And. if you play in a band where having a large and impressive looking backline is still part of the image then get some light-weight, low-profile empty ones to use as stage props that take up less floor space on stage and can be folded away to save space for transport.

 

As you can probably tell, I've dispensed with a dedicated bass rig. I found that I was playing two types of venue - small ones where I was being asked to turn down so much so as not to overpower the FoH sound that I could barely hear myself from my rig compared with the bass sound coming out of the guitarist's wedge on the other side of the stage; or the large ones where even my big and impressive-looking rig couldn't even begin to cover the whole stage and once again I was mostly reliant on the foldback to be able to hear myself. I was asking myself what was the point of taking this rig to gigs (3 items that were all ideally a two-person carry) when most of it made no contribution to what myself or my audience were hearing? I now use a Helix for my sound and an FRFR cab for rehearsals and the very occasional gig where the PA is strictly vocals only. I've done only a handful of these types of gig with any of my originals bands in the last 25 years, and the FRFR has been a massive improvement in terms of dispersion (and consequently on-stage balance) compared with my much more expensive traditional bass rig. I've gone from having to be so loud on stage that I could barely hear the other instruments in order for the bass guitar to project into the audience, to being just slightly louder than I would normally choose.

 

So really the only bass players who need a traditional amplification rig are those who only play small-ish gigs with vocal-only PA systems, or those who play in bands where the majority of the other instruments don't require amplification (like big bands). It seems ironic then that much of the advertising for amplification relies on "big-name" endorsees for whom the equipment they are promoting has little real-world benefit.

 

The other issue is that of IEMs:

 

Neither of the two bands I currently play in have made the switch to IEMs even though I think both would benefit from it. One of the bands is definitely more open to the idea than the other, and I suspect that finances allowing, this one will be be using IEMs within the next 12 months.

 

The biggest problem I see with IEMs is that the band really need to be doing their own foldback mix to get the best out of them. Quite a few of the bands that I have shared the bill with over the last few years use IEMs and all of them take much longer to soundcheck and suffer form numerous problems integrating their system with the house PA at the venue. This becomes even more complicated if you are also using the IEMs for things such as click tracks which are not wanted in the FoH. When I make the change it will be because the band will have also added the equipment required to do our own on-stage monitor mix that can be kept completely separate from the FoH and include things like click tracks, count ins and other band-only cues.

 

 

TL:DR pretty much everyone who isn't playing in a small pub covers band with a vocal only PA would benefit from ditching the traditional backline and using IEMs. Ultimately it's going to produce a better sound on stage and FoH and overall there will be less equipment to carry and set up. It's early days yet but I suspect in 10 years time we'll be wondering why it was even necessary to discuss this.

 

Having lived through the whole period this is spot on. It was done that way because the other options weren't feasible at the time. Once people have a system up and running they are going to be reluctant to change to something which might be difficult for them, expensive and until they try it a potential problem.

 

For me what has made it feasible for your 'average' band is the advent of affordable digital mixers. A couple of years ago I paid just £330 for an 18 channel mixer and sold my old Yamaha analogue for £200 (If I'd bought it that week it was still made for £400 so going digital was cheaper). I lost the snake and the new mixer is only the size of the old stage box. With the old mixer I'd have needed a separate monitor mixer to offer individualised monitor mixes and a host of outboard fx ideally for front of house. Just physically carrying all the kit to do on-stage monitoring was a bind. Even the Yamaha stayed at home a lot of the time because it physically wouldn't fit in the venue space. On stage I had to referee more than one volume war with each band member turning up to get 'more me' so they could hear themselves over the rest of the band.

 

So now I have six monitor outs for four band members. They don't need buy any kit to do their own monitor mixes as they can do this on their phones. Once the singer and I were using in-ears the drummer said "I'll try it" then wouldn't give my spare buds back, the guitarist realised he was missing out and ordered in ears from the rehearsal room. They can have as much 'me' as they want now and having control has upped the confidence.

 

The final thing which hasn't been fully explored is the damage to your ears of traditional back-line. Average sound levels on stage with a drummer and matching guitar and bass are going to be over 100db for most of us and you need that to reach the back of any medium sized venue. The permitted exposure to 100db is 10min and anything above this is known to permanently damage your hearing. It's too late for my generation almost all 60 year old musicians are deaf to some extent and it isn't due to age, it's due to noise exposure. It's due in some respect to 'more me' and the desire to feel 'your trousers flapping' 

 

I'm not telling anyone they are wrong, the old school generation of musicians have invested so much time, money and love in getting to where they are with music and sound to be proud of. If you are out entertaining people you want to concentrate on the music and what works is hard and seems risky to give up. I'm never going to knock people for doing what works for them but my goodness you don't know what you are missing until you try it.

[Ed_S]

Genuine question - what's your backup when your IEMs go down on a silent stage and you've suddenly got nothing at all? I play by ear, so hearing myself in context is a necessity rather than a luxury and IEMs as a way of doing that better certainly appeal in concept, but they seem much more risky than amps and/or wedges.

[neepheid]

18 minutes ago, Ed_S said:

Genuine question - what's your backup when your IEMs go down on a silent stage and you've suddenly got nothing at all? I play by ear, so hearing myself in context is a necessity rather than a luxury and IEMs as a way of doing that better certainly appeal in concept, but they seem much more risky than amps and/or wedges.

 

Don't be silly - IEMs never fail, they are the panacea to solve every panacea's problem!

[BigRedX]

17 minutes ago, Ed_S said:

Genuine question - what's your backup when your IEMs go down on a silent stage and you've suddenly got nothing at all? I play by ear, so hearing myself in context is a necessity rather than a luxury and IEMs as a way of doing that better certainly appeal in concept, but they seem much more risky than amps and/or wedges.

 

You do what you do for all "mission-critical" equipment - carry a spare. It doesn't have to be another pair of expensive custom moulds, a set of ZS10s (£45 from Amazon - even cheaper if you want to take a chance with AliExpress) will get you to the end of the gig. Cheaper than a spare amp or wedge and more than small enough to live permanently in your bag of gig essentials and unlikely to be left out because your couldn't be bothered to load them in or didn't have room in the band transport for a particular gig.

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

the old school generation of musicians have invested so much time, money and love in getting to where they are with music and sound to be proud of

 

As I have said before, I came away with a small profit after selling my old bass and guitar rigs and replacing them with a new Line6 Helix Floor and RCF745 FRFR and would have made even more profit if I had realised how little use the FRFR was going to get and gone for a cheaper model.

[la bam]

1 hour ago, Ed_S said:

Genuine question - what's your backup when your IEMs go down on a silent stage and you've suddenly got nothing at all? I play by ear, so hearing myself in context is a necessity rather than a luxury and IEMs as a way of doing that better certainly appeal in concept, but they seem much more risky than amps and/or wedges.

 

I take a spare behringer p2 (about £30) and a spare pair of normal earbud headphones.

 

In all honesty, if they were to go down you can still hear the PA clearly, so I probably wouldnt even use the backups.

[Ed_S]

40 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

You do what you do for all "mission-critical" equipment - carry a spare. It doesn't have to be another pair of expensive custom moulds, a set of ZS10s (£45 from Amazon - even cheaper if you want to take a chance with AliExpress) will get you to the end of the gig. Cheaper than a spare amp or wedge and more than small enough to live permanently in your bag of gig essentials and unlikely to be left out because your couldn't be bothered to load them in or didn't have room in the band transport for a particular gig.

 

I guess you'd want them on a cable in case it was your wireless that was the cause of the problem, which again is cheap, but also on a different aux from the mixer in case that was the cause of the problem, which is perhaps less so if you need the next model up to have enough outs. But fair play, that's kinda what I expected - it's going to put a dent in your performance that just moving closer to another wedge or back towards your amp wouldn't, but you just accept that as part of the deal.

[police squad]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

 

 

So now I have six monitor outs for four band members. They don't need buy any kit to do their own monitor mixes as they can do this on their phones. Once the singer and I were using in-ears the drummer said "I'll try it" then wouldn't give my spare buds back, the guitarist realised he was missing out and ordered in ears from the rehearsal room. They can have as much 'me' as they want now and having control has upped the confidence.

 

 

What desk do you use now?

I love my Allen and Heath desks, very very musical eq and the vocals sound so warm but it is analogue

[BigRedX]

As I said previously, I don't yet use IEMs with either of my bands, but the one that is most likely to be using them soon recently did a gig where the fold back for the house PA consisted of one tiny wedge monitor. Not a problem because we don't use any amps or cabs on stage we could hear what was coming out of the main PA speakers perfectly well in order to be able to play in time and in tune. You'd surprised by exactly how effective the PA is for hearing yourself when it doesn't have to fight for clarity over on-stage amplification - as has been pointed out by another poster above.