Why are we still doing this?

[Jack]

29 minutes ago, Ed_S said:

 

I guess you'd want them on a cable in case it was your wireless that was the cause of the problem, which again is cheap, but also on a different aux from the mixer in case that was the cause of the problem, which is perhaps less so if you need the next model up to have enough outs. But fair play, that's kinda what I expected - it's going to put a dent in your performance that just moving closer to another wedge or back towards your amp wouldn't, but you just accept that as part of the deal.

Chances are that anything mission critical is going to put a 'dent in your performance'. Can't have your amp fail without losing sound as well. I don't even use IEMs but just off the top of my head I would put my bass in my singer's monitor wedge, which could be done whilst playing, and then sort it out at a set break.

[lemmywinks]

4 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Having lived through the whole period this is spot on. It was done that way because the other options weren't feasible at the time. Once people have a system up and running they are going to be reluctant to change to something which might be difficult for them, expensive and until they try it a potential problem.

 

For me what has made it feasible for your 'average' band is the advent of affordable digital mixers. A couple of years ago I paid just £330 for an 18 channel mixer and sold my old Yamaha analogue for £200 (If I'd bought it that week it was still made for £400 so going digital was cheaper). I lost the snake and the new mixer is only the size of the old stage box. With the old mixer I'd have needed a separate monitor mixer to offer individualised monitor mixes and a host of outboard fx ideally for front of house. Just physically carrying all the kit to do on-stage monitoring was a bind. Even the Yamaha stayed at home a lot of the time because it physically wouldn't fit in the venue space. On stage I had to referee more than one volume war with each band member turning up to get 'more me' so they could hear themselves over the rest of the band.

 

So now I have six monitor outs for four band members. They don't need buy any kit to do their own monitor mixes as they can do this on their phones. Once the singer and I were using in-ears the drummer said "I'll try it" then wouldn't give my spare buds back, the guitarist realised he was missing out and ordered in ears from the rehearsal room. They can have as much 'me' as they want now and having control has upped the confidence.

 

The final thing which hasn't been fully explored is the damage to your ears of traditional back-line. Average sound levels on stage with a drummer and matching guitar and bass are going to be over 100db for most of us and you need that to reach the back of any medium sized venue. The permitted exposure to 100db is 10min and anything above this is known to permanently damage your hearing. It's too late for my generation almost all 60 year old musicians are deaf to some extent and it isn't due to age, it's due to noise exposure. It's due in some respect to 'more me' and the desire to feel 'your trousers flapping' 

 

I'm not telling anyone they are wrong, the old school generation of musicians have invested so much time, money and love in getting to where they are with music and sound to be proud of. If you are out entertaining people you want to concentrate on the music and what works is hard and seems risky to give up. I'm never going to knock people for doing what works for them but my goodness you don't know what you are missing until you try it.

 

Same, my early days of playing in bands with our own PA involved various Peavey cabs like Hisys4 and HP400, a huge pair of bass bins, heavy monitors and three massively heavy amps (usually CS1800) to power them all in a back breaking rack unit. Needed a van to cart all this around, gigs with stairs were a nightmare and we still needed to take substantial backline with us. The limited monitoring options offered by our desk meant hearing vocals was a compromise as was the on stage sound overall. None of this was cheap either.

 

There does seem to be a lot of personal attachment to amps and I get that, it's the way things have always been done at pub/bar level. I still oggle bass rigs in the FS section every day even though I have no desire to use one live again and was reluctant to stop using them myself for a long time. In the end the ability to have full instant control over my own monitor mix and hear everything clearly won out - just being able to turn the snare down would be worth it tbh. Everything else such as pretty much halving our load in and decimating our setup times was purely a bonus.

Edited May 17, 2023 by lemmywinks

[Ed_S]

40 minutes ago, Jack said:

Chances are that anything mission critical is going to put a 'dent in your performance'. Can't have your amp fail without losing sound as well. I don't even use IEMs but just off the top of my head I would put my bass in my singer's monitor wedge, which could be done whilst playing, and then sort it out at a set break.

 

Completely get what you're saying - I just like to know that I've given myself the best chance of a stress-free time when I'm on stage. Like for example my amp failing on a gig where there are also wedges wouldn't be too bad since my DI doesn't come from my amp, and my pedalboard has a true bypass path to my DI, which itself can take phantom power from the mixer. My board losing power would take my wireless out and need me to switch to an emergency cable, but I could plug back into an otherwise dead board and still get signal to FoH, monitors and my amp. Dropping out of the FoH and/or monitors due to my DI failing would still leave my amp, which is better than nothing. It'd just take a little bit of re-thinking to feel comfortable that I'd got everything similarly sussed.

[Sibob]

After a tidy, if the thread can't stay on topic without personal attacks and goading, it will be closed.

 

Cheers
Si

[la bam]

Regarding back up etc, think of it another way, especially for small/medium gigs.

 

You are actually closer to the pa than the rest of the audience. There is now no other noise on stage (apart from drums) so in theory, if your audience is getting a good all round sound, then you should be. Theres nothing on stage where you are clouding the clarity of the overall audience sound.

 

Worst case scenario slightly tilt the pa inwards so you can hear the front of it better, but you wont really need to.

[Lozz196]

Thinking about this, given that I`m trying to offload a full Ashdown ABM rig I should be hating on everyone going ampless 🤣

[BigRedX]

@Ed_S Do you have a lot of equipment failures?

 

I think in over 40 years of gigging I've only had a handful that were more serious than breaking a string and all of them were fixable in a way that allowed the gig to carry on; and just one of those fixes was noticeable to the audience.

 

One of the many reasons I've ditched my backline is that it cuts down on the number of spares I need to consider whether or not to bother with. 

[Ed_S]

20 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

@Ed_S Do you have a lot of equipment failures?

 

I think in over 40 years of gigging I've only had a handful that were more serious than breaking a string and all of them were fixable in a way that allowed the gig to carry on; and just one of those fixes was noticeable to the audience.

 

One of the many reasons I've ditched my backline is that it cuts down on the number of spares I need to consider whether or not to bother with. 

 

Far from it - barely any in fact. It's just that part of me being able to get up on stage and enjoy my time there comes from knowing that I've done what I can to ensure all goes well, and am generally at peace with my strategy for everything else. I'm not against any of this in principle - I'm just figuring out whether I could be happy using it, irrespective of how good it sounds.

[Phil Starr]

7 hours ago, police squad said:

What desk do you use now?

I love my Allen and Heath desks, very very musical eq and the vocals sound so warm but it is analogue

I plumped for the RCF M18, it's gone up in price since then unfortunately. For me it offered all I need in the simplest package, rock solid router connection and in two years not a glitch in the software which is simple and intuitive. The pre's are good too so it sounds great. The Behringer offers a lot more in the way of facilities and flexibility but with a steeper learning curve. I mix from on stage apart from a quick soundcheck so I'll never use most of what I have, nothing on the M18 is more than two clicks away. Basically it is idiot proof which suits me

[Skinnyman]

1 hour ago, Phil Starr said:

I plumped for the RCF M18, it's gone up in price since then unfortunately. For me it offered all I need in the simplest package, rock solid router connection and in two years not a glitch in the software which is simple and intuitive. The pre's are good too so it sounds great. The Behringer offers a lot more in the way of facilities and flexibility but with a steeper learning curve. I mix from on stage apart from a quick soundcheck so I'll never use most of what I have, nothing on the M18 is more than two clicks away. Basically it is idiot proof which suits me

+1 for the RCF. We had an issue with WiFi dropouts but I got round that by using a tethered usb connection to a cheap android tablet. Since then, rock solid and way more features than we need - but nice to know we have the option. Guitarist Helix gone down? Plug into a hi-z on the RCF. Lost an fox pedal? Put it in the signal chain on the RCF. Need six individual mixes? Record to USB? All covered by the RCF. It really is a fantastic bit of kit…. If I was buying again, it would be a toss up between that and the Zoom Livetrak 

[lemmywinks]

5 minutes ago, Skinnyman said:

 Record to USB? All covered by the RCF.

 

That's another bonus of a digital desk, you can record your entire gig over USB and the quality is excellent.

[Linus27]

I tried IEM a few times and I absolutely hated it. I felt completely disengaged and unconnected with the rest of the band and for me having something stuck in my ear muted the actual stage sound and interaction with the band, especially the drummer. The whole experience felt very clinical and lost the energy and feel of playing live. The rest of the band did use IEM but I found after a few songs, they all pulled one of the earplugs out so to have have one in ears and the other half the live stage sound. The singer especially did this as she found it easier to pitch.

[la bam]

44 minutes ago, Linus27 said:

I tried IEM a few times and I absolutely hated it. I felt completely disengaged and unconnected with the rest of the band and for me having something stuck in my ear muted the actual stage sound and interaction with the band, especially the drummer. The whole experience felt very clinical and lost the energy and feel of playing live. The rest of the band did use IEM but I found after a few songs, they all pulled one of the earplugs out so to have have one in ears and the other half the live stage sound. The singer especially did this as she found it easier to pitch.

 

Was that with still having backline as well?

 

That was my very first experience with them with using too when using backline as well.

 

Now we have no backline, it's a totally different feel.

[Linus27]

26 minutes ago, la bam said:

 

Was that with still having backline as well?

 

That was my very first experience with them with using too when using backline as well.

 

Now we have no backline, it's a totally different feel.

 

Yes it was but I found I couldn't really hear the backline which is what made me feel very disconnected to the band, especially the drums. I very much play with dynamics and energy, reading and feeling what the music is doing and either driving or holding back but using IEM lacked the feeling of any energy of a live performance and somewhat flat.

[la bam]

13 minutes ago, Linus27 said:

 

Yes it was but I found I couldn't really hear the backline which is what made me feel very disconnected to the band, especially the drums. I very much play with dynamics and energy, reading and feeling what the music is doing and either driving or holding back but using IEM lacked the feeling of any energy of a live performance and somewhat flat.

 

That's exactly how I was when I did it with backline. I found myself just stood there concentrating listening rather than playing /performing.

[skidder652003]

Try a Porter and davies platform.

The feel of a huge stack behind you, every note and harmonic through your body, locked into the drummers kick and snare, whatever you like, also going into the platform.

I've had in ears, didn't like the isolation from the audience or the other band members.

I have the full fat SVT and 410, don't like the weight.

Last couple of gigs has just been Digbeth pre pedal to the desk and desk to platform, was fantastic.

Certainly recommend a go on one if you get the opportunity.

some bands use them.

https://www.porteranddavies.co.uk/bands/

[Jack]

My guitarist hated them until he started setting up an ambient mic. It's a Behringer LDC that just goes on a stand facing the audience, gets him as much of the room vibe and crowd as he wants. The fact that he already does that each gig is one of the reasons I'm considering making the switch.

[Phil Starr]

8 hours ago, Linus27 said:

 

Yes it was but I found I couldn't really hear the backline which is what made me feel very disconnected to the band, especially the drums. I very much play with dynamics and energy, reading and feeling what the music is doing and either driving or holding back but using IEM lacked the feeling of any energy of a live performance and somewhat flat.

I suspect you hadn't mic'ed the drums or that the mix was wrong for you.

 

Isolation and excitement were my concerns and I did feel that way at first but I stuck with it. It fades as a feeling and disappears at the first good gig. I was prepared to mic the audience so that we could hear them in the mix but it never happened. In the end what you gain is more connection with the drums and the rest of the band because you need to hear them better and honestly getting studio quality sound through your ears is what you really need for that. No more straining to hear the guitarist on the far side of a narrow stage and the kick crystal clear every time. In the end you have more spare capacity for feeling the music and engaging the audience because your monitoring mix is perfect every time.

 

To be fair there is a problem when the band forget they are wearing in ears and shout something across the stage instead of using the mic. 

[Phil Starr]

22 hours ago, Ed_S said:

Genuine question - what's your backup when your IEMs go down on a silent stage and you've suddenly got nothing at all? I play by ear, so hearing myself in context is a necessity rather than a luxury and IEMs as a way of doing that better certainly appeal in concept, but they seem much more risky than amps and/or wedges.

I carry spares of everything and always have done, though that means the floor monitors would have to double as PA. The exception now is the mixer and in 17 years of gigging I've never had a mixer failure. In fact the only problems we've had with the in ears have been other band members forgetting or not changing batteries, so I carry spares for them too. Equipment failures are rare nowadays, I haven't had anything fail for over 15 years other than the odd mic lead.

[BigRedX]

42 minutes ago, skidder652003 said:

Try a Porter and davies platform.

The feel of a huge stack behind you, every note and harmonic through your body, locked into the drummers kick and snare, whatever you like, also going into the platform.

I've had in ears, didn't like the isolation from the audience or the other band members.

I have the full fat SVT and 410, don't like the weight.

Last couple of gigs has just been Digbeth pre pedal to the desk and desk to platform, was fantastic.

Certainly recommend a go on one if you get the opportunity.

some bands use them.

https://www.porteranddavies.co.uk/bands/

 

Fine if you never move. Do they have one that covers the entire stage?

 

However, IME if you need to "feel" the sound to get the right vibe then there is something wrong with the songs.

Edited May 18, 2023 by BigRedX

[Skinnyman]

11 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

 

That's another bonus of a digital desk, you can record your entire gig over USB and the quality is excellent.

I dunno about that. I listened to it later and we were still sh**

[Steve Browning]

17 minutes ago, Skinnyman said:

I dunno about that. I listened to it later and we were still sh**

Yeah, but now you know clearly how sh** you are! 🙂

[Jack]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

I carry spares of everything and always have done, though that means the floor monitors would have to double as PA. The exception now is the mixer and in 17 years of gigging I've never had a mixer failure. In fact the only problems we've had with the in ears have been other band members forgetting or not changing batteries, so I carry spares for them too. Equipment failures are rare nowadays, I haven't had anything fail for over 15 years other than the odd mic lead.

This. Having a spare is not the same as having a backup plan. When I used an amp I never once brought a spare amp, I brought a DI box. I always, always, always carry a spare bass because I would need one if my bass broke in some way, but I don't bother carrying a spare microphone or mic stand. The contingency is to just not sing backing vocals. We'll manage with only 3 vocals rather than 4 and I'm the worst singer anyway. On the super rare chance the mixer goes down then just grab the lead vocalist's microphone, plug it straight into a pa main speaker and carry on. It's not the Albert Hall.

[skidder652003]

12 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

Fine if you never move. Do they have one that covers the entire stage?

 

However, IME if you need to "feel" the sound to get the right vibe then there is something wrong with the songs.

I guess those 100's of top international bands using them must be pretty static on stage then..oh well.

Im not sure you get the concept of the thing either, you can actually hear the bass as well believe it or not, hey you can even use a monitor and/or IEM's as well if you want!

 

[BigRedX]

20 minutes ago, skidder652003 said:

I guess those 100's of top international bands using them must be pretty static on stage then..oh well.

Im not sure you get the concept of the thing either, you can actually hear the bass as well believe it or not, hey you can even use a monitor and/or IEM's as well if you want!

 

If you can hear them surely it negates the point of having a silent stage?

 

Also I looked at the sizes the biggest platform is 4' by just over 2.5'. For me that's a very cramped area. Even for the small gigs my band currently do I would be using more stage then that. I can see the attraction of the stools/seats for drummers and other sit down players but for those of us who move about, it's always going to be a bit of a compromise.