Why are we still doing this?

[jimmyb625]

An interesting, if at times fractious, thread. Here's some of my own thoughts/observations, not that anyone has asked for them, but then that's the nature of the internet.

 

First and in my mind, foremost, we're entertainers. People pay money to come and see us perform music, whether it's original songs or cover versions. As a result of that, I feel we have a duty to provide them with the best sounding version of ourselves that we're able to. If that means making a compromise, then it should be us that does it, as opposed to the audience.

 

With regard to the size of venue, as a couple of other people have said, it's in the smaller places that it's even more beneficial to use in-ears. Reducing the amount of on-stage "noise" makes it easier to get a good sounding mix out to where the money is. On a large stage in a venue, there's naturally a greater distance between any backline and the audience, so audio spill and the interference with front of house is reduced.

 

I still carry and use an amp from time to time, although "my sound" is all derived from my pedalboard (via the Origin Effects bassrig) and the amp only serves as a small monitor with which to annoy the drummer. Doing it this way ensure that I'm feeding FOH with the same sound every time I play. I've played before now without the amp (I forgot to load it into the car!) and it didn't cause me any issues, as I could monitor it through the PA. I've also played gigs at some pretty big places where I just used the drummers wedge to listen to what I needed.

 

Like a few others on the thread, I also sometimes double up as the sound engineer, which has seen me strongly advocate for the use of IEM's, particularly for the three at the front who have mic's. At first, there was some resistance from the lead singist, but after a couple of gigs he realised he wasn't straining his voice and became an enthusiastic advocate. The main female singist definitely needed them, as she used to have her monitor so loud, it overwhelmed anything else on the stage. The drummer is still resistant to making the change, but he does use over-ears with his electronic duo, so I've not completely given up on the idea of getting him to change. Certainly the use of ambient mic's on the stage is of great benefit, as we can patch them through to the individual mixes and continue to hurl abuse at each other.

 

Ironically, even though I'm hugely in favour of using them, I can't get to the stage where I'm completely happy with them for myself. I think it's because I'm still using a wired set, even though I own the 3 wireless units we use already. Having 2 cables attached was quite an annoyance and a bit of a faff when it came to starting the set off, having to plug in and untangle the things. I'm just in the process of going wireless for the bass, which fixes 50% of the problem, so I may look at going wireless for the IEM's as well.

 

One thing that is really important, is to make sure you've rehearsed with them and to know what it is you want in the mix. With digital desks nowadays, it's a lot easier, as you can store your settings, so sound check time should be massively reduced (if you're using your own desk). When we play at other gigs where we're not bringing the desk, I try to make a record of the standard mixes that everyone has, so I can pass them on to the monitor engineer. It's not perfect, but it's a good starting point.

 

Ultimately though, there's never going to be one solution that will serve everyone. There isn't a right or wrong, just a myriad of better or worse depending on your own situation. Over time though, I tend to think IEM's will become the norm, in much the same way as line arrays have done for PA systems, or indeed lightweight bass cabinets and class D amplifiers. 

 

[neepheid]

9 minutes ago, jimmyb625 said:

Ultimately though, there's never going to be one solution that will serve everyone. There isn't a right or wrong, just a myriad of better or worse depending on your own situation. Over time though, I tend to think IEM's will become the norm, in much the same way as line arrays have done for PA systems, or indeed lightweight bass cabinets and class D amplifiers. 

 

 

As long as there are dullards like me, rank amateurs who don't earn enough through gigging to be permitted to have an dissenting opinion about this sort of thing, you'll always have amp toting village idiots as long as analogue electronics continue to be manufactured.

Edited May 18, 2023 by neepheid

[jimmyb625]

22 minutes ago, neepheid said:

 

As long as there are dullards like me, rank amateurs who don't earn enough through gigging to be permitted to have an dissenting opinion about this sort of thing, you'll always have amp toting village idiots as long as analogue electronics continue to be manufactured.

That's fair enough, like I said there's never going to be one solution that will serve everyone.

[skidder652003]

9 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

If you can hear them surely it negates the point of having a silent stage?

 

Also I looked at the sizes the biggest platform is 4' by just over 2.5'. For me that's a very cramped area. Even for the small gigs my band currently do I would be using more stage then that. I can see the attraction of the stools/seats for drummers and other sit down players but for those of us who move about, it's always going to be a bit of a compromise.

fair point.

Just a suggestion for something different. 

 

[mcnach]

On 13/05/2023 at 17:50, Raymondo said:

Why would I want to isolate myself when on stage? I am probably not as "Pro" as the OP but ..

.I have had a few years where I paid all my bills by only playing bass, and...

 

If playing to 2000 is a measure ... I have played Rock City a few times....which leads me to my point.

 

The onstage monitoring and overall stage sound at Rock City was phenomenal.

The noise of the packed crowd singing every word was so moving and inspirational.

 

I'm not sure that it would have been so enjoyable with my ears blocked by IEMs.

 

 

I liked it when I used a stage microphone (actually a Zoom H2 stereo field recorder) in addition to the mix I was given. With a tiny weeny mixer on my pedalboard [1] so that I could balance the mix, my own bass, and the 'ambience'. You're still somewhat isolated in that I don't have a mic on me so if someone talks to me I don't have a good way to hear them clearly but people can be pretty shouty and it didn't seem a terrible problem

 

Anyway... I don't want to preach in case someone confuses me with... (is he gone yet? ) , and I'm very very new to this IEM thing. I got interested in order to hear things better while keeping the volume down for my ears. I've played in some really nice stages where standard wedges/amps worked beautifully, but unfortunately I play way too many that are nowhere near as good, and that's where I find IEM most useful. Pub gigs? I think IEM is ideal for that. 

I'm waiting for one of those BackBeat units that you out on the strap/belt and vibrate with your bass, which is supposed to improve the experience. We'll see. 

 

[1] I'm using a very unsophisticated method, and wired, using one of those combined instrument/earphone cables with the mixer feeding my little headphone amp attached to my belt and one of those multidrive KZ10-something earphones that I sa being recommended on the "IEM Bible" thread. Not a huge investment by any means (mixer was around £50, and so was the cable, the earphones about £30) and I felt it was a good way to give IEM a try. 

 

I hesitated for a while because it seemed it could be a faff when you're not the 'important band' and getting a suitable mix would depend largely on others, but my 'ghetto' approach works in any situation and can make some of the venues where I never get a good sound/monitor onstage become a much more pleasant experience. If I can have  good mix, brilliant. If I don't, the H2 mic onstage gives me whatever I would normally hear, but at reduced levels, better clarity, and get to balance my bass better for my ears.

 

Aaanyway, whatever system people use, I think having an ambience mic in the mix is really important to not feel isolated.

[mcnach]

On 14/05/2023 at 00:45, Ricky 4000 said:

 

I had a set of Prinzsound 909s a while back:

 

 

Lovely leathery head strap, but they were electrically past the point of saving. Would have been amazing for reggae too... ah well...

 

You don't see anybody collecting vintage IEMs do ya?

 

QED, whatever that means.

 

I never thought I would ever say "that's a beautiful set of headphones!" 

 

wow!

[Paul S]

My band's set up probably wouldn't work for everyone but it works for us.  We have a pair of RCF EVOX 8 pa units that, due to some strong juju, can be placed behind mics but don't (generally) feedback.  For the small pubs we usually play we put vocals, kick drum and bass through the desk, I go straight from an EQ/DI pedal - guitarist prefers to keep his Fender Twin combo out of the pa.  If we are feeling expansive at a bigger venue and/or can be bothered we sometimes mic up all the drums, stick an overhead for the cymbals and mic up guitarists combo.  Withe the pa behind us we can hear ourselves quite adequately, if loudly, so there is no need for extra monitoring.  Volume 'on stage' is attentuated by ear plugs or, in my case, my hearing aids - the volume of which I can control via an app and/or a bluetooth gizmo that hangs round my neck  That way I still get a rounded and full sound but at comfortable level in my ears.  There are not many plusses for wearing hearing aids but this is one of them   And no backline for me!  So simple - set up and breakdown is pretty quick.

[Reggaebass]

On 14/05/2023 at 00:45, Ricky 4000 said:

 

I had a set of Prinzsound 909s a while back:

 

 

Lovely leathery head strap, but they were electrically past the point of saving. Would have been amazing for reggae too... ah well...

 

You don't see anybody collecting vintage IEMs do ya?

 

QED, whatever that means.

They look great Ricky, love those ☝️, if you want some good headphones for reggae and not that expensive, the House of Marley XLBT ones have got a heavy bass sound 

[JPJ]

15 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

If you can hear them surely it negates the point of having a silent stage?

 

Also I looked at the sizes the biggest platform is 4' by just over 2.5'. For me that's a very cramped area. Even for the small gigs my band currently do I would be using more stage then that. I can see the attraction of the stools/seats for drummers and other sit down players but for those of us who move about, it's always going to be a bit of a compromise.

4ft by 2.5ft would be a bloody luxury at some of my gigs 😂

Isn’t there a version of the drummers ‘butt kicker’ that hangs off your bass strap that does a similar thing? 

[warwickhunt]

50 minutes ago, JPJ said:

4ft by 2.5ft would be a bloody luxury at some of my gigs 😂

Isn’t there a version of the drummers ‘butt kicker’ that hangs off your bass strap that does a similar thing? 

 

There is.  A guy came to try out an LH1000 amp through a pair of 400w 1x15 cabs and trialled them while using this very same thing on his bass strap... the irony of firing up an LH1000 with 2x15, whilst wearing a strap vibrator was not lost on me!  

[snorkie635]

7 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

There is.  A guy came to try out an LH1000 amp through a pair of 400w 1x15 cabs and trialled them while using this very same thing on his bass strap... the irony of firing up an LH1000 with 2x15, whilst wearing a strap vibrator was not lost on me!  

Long time since I've worn a strap vibrator. 🤣

[Rob Bisby]

To some extent I'm gunna disagree, most of the gigs I've done in the last year or so have been pub gigs where they don't even Mic the amps up. We also don't have a PA and nor can I afford to go digital

[Gypsyfolk]

On 12/05/2023 at 10:45, thodrik said:

I am probably in the minority but my interest in old school bass amps from the 1970s through to the mid 2000s outweighs my interest in bass guitars. I am always far more likely to buy an amp or a cab than I am a bass guitar. 

My main interest areas are generally either heavy rock or old school blues where artists are generally sticking to the traditional amplification routes. 

Yes, with modern technology there is the ability to gig with in-ears and if I was gigging in a group that required me to use them then I definitely would and definitely would if I was in an international touring act, but I'm not. I am also aware that in a gigging scenario my amp is essentially just a personal monitor and the FOH is receiving a different signal altogether. However, in most scenarios I still prefer that to having in ears or using a EQ/DI pedal and using a wedge monitor. 

At this point I play music for pleasure and it brings me more pleasure to use an actual amp than in ears or amp modulations of the amps I already own. As a result I will generally use one unless requested otherwise. When I am paid for a gig though I generally do whatever is asked of me without fuss.

For context I am 36 and still able to lift stuff and my hearing is still good, my answer in 20 years time might well be fairly different! 
 

 

[Gypsyfolk]

Amps shape your tone a lot more than the bass you are playing 

[Frank Blank]

4 hours ago, snorkie635 said:

Long time since I've worn a strap vibrator. 🤣

 

All the rage in the 70s (so I'm told) very popular on the Norfolk Broads in case your outboard conked out.

[snorkie635]

2 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

 

All the rage in the 70s (so I'm told) very popular on the Norfolk Broads in case your outboard conked out.

A great help in pushing off if stranded on the bank I'd imagine? Also useful for measuring depth?

[msb]

I love my amps.
I’d even admit to being somewhat nerdy about them and enjoy my home practice rigs as much as I do the stage gear. 

[MrDinsdale]

I think the kind of music you play will have a big influence on it.

 

Playing in a noisy punk band, the bands on the lineup are on a scale of pretty loud to obnoxiously loud. Don't think I've ever seen anyone with a full IEM setup on any of the gigs, closest was a band using the for vocal harmonies but they were still standing in front of Marshal stacks.

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, MrDinsdale said:

I think the kind of music you play will have a big influence on it.

 

Playing in a noisy punk band, the bands on the lineup are on a scale of pretty loud to obnoxiously loud. Don't think I've ever seen anyone with a full IEM setup on any of the gigs, closest was a band using the for vocal harmonies but they were still standing in front of Marshal stacks.

 

As I said in a previous post, if your band image requires it, there's nothing wrong with having fake amps on stage, if not having actual backline makes you sound better both FoH and your IEMs.

 

Before silent stages and IEMs became a thing for anything but big touring bands, The Terrortones used to regularly gig with a band that had the typical "rock band" image. That included a full stack for both guitarists and the bass player no matter how big or small the venue was (it was fairly hilarious watching them trying to get this setup into Nottingham's tiny Jam Café venue). Their reasoning was that the full stack had the same stage footprint as a single cab (and TBH they took up the same space as a typical 30W combo on a tilt-back stand), the top cabs placed the drivers closer to their ears and the bottom cabs didn't have to be plugged in if the venue/stage didn't require it, plus each rig was run through a Marshall PowerBrake and so could be as loud or quiet as needed while still providing the right sound. Once you have the right mentality, it's only a small step from this to fake cabs, modelling pedals and IEMs... 

Edited May 20, 2023 by BigRedX

[Downunderwonder]

On 19/05/2023 at 08:43, neepheid said:

 

As long as there are dullards like me, rank amateurs who don't earn enough through gigging to be permitted to have an dissenting opinion about this sort of thing, you'll always have amp toting village idiots as long as analogue electronics continue to be manufactured.

Don't talk us semi pro <cough> smarter than the average village dweller amp toters down! We're all carrying thankfully lighter amps until we pack it in.

 

On that note I packed out my Trace 1518 for a lark recently. Burger me, I hope it was the lingering after effect of a run in with the lurg but damn I don't remember it being that heavy to pick up. My newer wagon has quite a higher boot lid than the one I had when I last used it.

[MrDinsdale]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

As I said in a previous post, if your band image requires it, there's nothing wrong with having fake amps on stage, if not having actual backline makes you sound better both FoH and your IEMs.

 

Before silent stages and IEMs became a thing for anything but big touring bands, The Terrortones used to regularly gig with a band that had the typical "rock band" image. That included a full stack for both guitarists and the bass player no matter how big or small the venue was (it was fairly hilarious watching them trying to get this setup into Nottingham's tiny Jam Café venue). Their reasoning was that the full stack had the same stage footprint as a single cab (and TBH they took up the same space as a typical 30W combo on a tilt-back stand), the top cabs placed the drivers closer to their ears and the bottom cabs didn't have to be plugged in if the venue/stage didn't require it, plus each rig was run through a Marshall PowerBrake and so could be as loud or quiet as needed while still providing the right sound. Once you have the right mentality, it's only a small step from this to fake cabs, modelling pedals and IEMs... 

Makes sense although if the other bands on the bill are all using their traditional full stacks it still presents a logistical challenge for FOH and change overs etc.

 

My pedal board is fully kitted out for an amp-less setup and have done it in the past with sound straight through wedges. I'd certainly give it a go but I know for a fact the rest of the band would have zero interest. 

[taunton-hobbit]

Nuvver one clue -

 

😎

 

[joel406]

7 gigs in 14 days. 

 

Some small. Some not so small. IEMs for everyone. 

 

Sound tech happy.

Crowd happy.

My back is happy.

 

My tone has never been better. The Quadcortex is a proven amp killer. 

 

Are amps dead.

 

No. They have their place. 

 

Just not on a stage.

[silverfoxnik]

On 20/05/2023 at 13:49, joel406 said:

7 gigs in 14 days. 

 

Some small. Some not so small. IEMs for everyone. 

 

Sound tech happy.

Crowd happy.

My back is happy.

 

My tone has never been better. The Quadcortex is a proven amp killer. 

 

Are amps dead.

 

No. They have their place. 

 

Just not on a stage.

Not necessarily... 

 

 

[joel406]

5 hours ago, silverfoxnik said:

Not necessarily... 

 

 

Nice.

 

Very subjective and not what everyone else experiences. The QC is definitely the future. Safer. More adaptive. As a bass player this is even more so. And having to move your amps into another part of the venue shows how toxic onstage noise truly is. But thanks for proving my point even if you weren't trying. After the last 3 days of gigs, we are all just a little bit more in love with our QCs and IEMs. And after seeing this I'm so glad we ditched our amps. Maybe the guys in the video will learn to use their QCs one day and get the sound they are after. It certainly does for us.