Why are we still doing this?

[Phil Starr]

8 hours ago, silverfoxnik said:

Not necessarily... 

 

 

They lost me a bit when they talked about the "air between the amps and mics" being responsible for the change in sound. That's too fairy dust for me. I persevered and it looks like this is just the guitarist and with the amps he's running stereo but with the modeller in mono. Um it could be that guys

 

To be fair when you look at how they mic'd the cabs you are going to get different tones as you move the mic around and mics aren't flat response and they had to change mic's at one point. Then they talked about mids and bass (on the guitar) and the different eq they were getting. Um, no eq available in their modeller? This was comparing apples and pears and yes, they are different!

 

 

the other thing is that this is a touring band with not just one sound person but separate mixing for FOH and monitors and probably a team of engineers, I can't see any stage monitors so presumably they are still using in-ears. Come to that the bassist didn't seem to have a bass amp and they didn't talk about that or what the keys were using for amplification. They still had the on stage problems with the volume of the guitar amps and this was "outdoors and on large stages" not the Dog and Duck.

[silverfoxnik]

I posted the video to show a  example whereby, very experienced musicians and sound engineers, have chosen to go back to using guitar amps - instead of the amp modellers they were using - because, in their experience and within the context of their musical setting, the guitar amps offer a tangible sonic improvement over what is currently available sonically from amp modelling products. 

 

Their particular gigging situation is obviously more rarified than most of us ever get to experience, but nonetheless, their choice is testament to the fact that guitar amps still offer something important and unique that musicians, sound engineers and producers value. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by silverfoxnik

[Pea Turgh]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

They lost me a bit when they talked about the "air between the amps and mics" being responsible for the change in sound. That's too fairy dust for me. 

 I’ve got some jars of tone air if anyone is in the market.  My favourite is “charity shop” air - so much character.

[BigRedX]

12 hours ago, silverfoxnik said:

Not necessarily... 

 

 

 

I suppose if it makes them happy and it's do-able then get on with it. However you need to be playing a certain level of venue and have absolute control over the backstage area in order to make this work. That probably means some poor member of the road crew has to sit for the entire gig minding the amps (and listening to just the guitars at ear-splitting volume as seen in the video) to make sure that no-one unplugs them or otherwise messes with that rack.

 

There are also some moments in the video where it appears that either the band or their tech have completely misunderstood some key aspects of signal chain order especially those regarding echo/delay/reverb and distortion, where most of the time you need all the distortion producing devices (including valve power amps and speakers if you are driving them hard) to come before your delays and reverbs otherwise your sound turns to mush as described in the video. Of course, occasionally that mush might be exactly what you want, but most of the time if you are going to be putting delays on the sound you want to be able to hear them as delays. That means running a 4-cable system between your effects and amps and maybe even adding the delays and reverbs post microphone at the desk. So all they seem to be doing is swapping one set of compromises for another.

 

I can see this system being worthwhile if you are making a very detailed recording of the songs in the studio. However, ultimately I doubt whether a single member of the audience notices, hears, or appreciates the lengths that these musicians have gone to in order to be able to use real amps instead of modellers.

[Jack]

Even then though, they're using amps for the sound. Not for the volume. And they're off stage, being monitored via IEMs. It's sounds like a weird thing to say, but for the purposes of this thread they are actually 'ampless'.

[borntohang]

I've been on IEMs since 2019 through necessity, but never with a totally silent stage. My favourite compromise has been live drums and a small backline just in case, mostly kept extremely low for tactile feedback (and real feedback). My least favourite was electronic drums and the rest of the band on full volume backline and wedge; absolutely horrid and only got through the show in one piece because my isolated IEMs meant I could mostly ignore the ghastly stage sound. I have a show with a 30 piece orchestra next month which will be IEM only so that will be an experience - possible I will take a small tube head and a Captor setup for that one.

 

I've started playing with an instrumental trio recently and we use 50 watt valve half-stacks simply because we can, it's fun, and there are no vocal mics to trouble the FOH. It's doable because we're not playing the Dog and Duck and the psych/doom scene we play in is very accepting of loud amps anyway as that's still the standard - we've actually found that our 50 watters are severely under-gunned on most line-ups. We know the amps well and use the extra headroom for big dynamic changes instead of just cranking them which helps us stand out from the drop-tuned masses a tiny bit.

[BigRedX]

For me (with my guitarist's hat on) once you've made the switch to multi-effects/modellers and IEMs, the only reason to still have an amp and cab on stage would be for feedback and sustain effects. I've shared the bill with a few bands now who are on IEMs and amp-less apart from something small and full of valves for the guitarist to do just that.

[MrDinsdale]

Just out of curiosity, the bands playing with fully ampless rigs, are you playing with other bands and if so are they using similar setups?

 

I don't think we've played a single gig with any bands using an ampless setup so usually everything is mic'd up ready to go, just a case of switching heads and breakables etc. I'd imagine switching between a stage fully configured for full backline to ampless then back again would be a bit of a nightmare, especially with quick changeovers. 

[thisisswanbon]

I made the switch to IEMs (rest of the band use wedges) and going FOH a couple of months ago... I miss my amp, but it makes a huge difference to the load in, load out and stage aesthetic.

 

We play 90s/00s dance/rave with some 80s/90s pop and indie thrown in, and whilst I hear and feel the difference, the sound is definitely more even from the P.A. with plenty of low end (although less immediate authority than my amp), I've realised the audience doesn't notice the difference, and that's where it counts.  I was tempted to sell my amp, but you never know when the need will arise.

[warwickhunt]

4 minutes ago, MrDinsdale said:

Just out of curiosity, the bands playing with fully ampless rigs, are you playing with other bands and if so are they using similar setups?

 

I don't think we've played a single gig with any bands using an ampless setup so usually everything is mic'd up ready to go, just a case of switching heads and breakables etc. I'd imagine switching between a stage fully configured for full backline to ampless then back again would be a bit of a nightmare, especially with quick changeovers. 

 

We are navigating this issue with a double header bill.  The other band are full backline and nothing IE, whereas we are all IE with the exception of the drummer (acoustic mic'd kit) who uses a wedge.  The other band have an engineer but despite repeated enquires, we know nothing about his set up/PA.  I suppose it should be navigable but will he be able to supply 3 band members with adequate mixes so that we all hear what we need (we all do vocals as well)?  I've never had to worry about this in the past when I turn up with backline.  

[borntohang]

9 minutes ago, MrDinsdale said:

Just out of curiosity, the bands playing with fully ampless rigs, are you playing with other bands and if so are they using similar setups?

 

I don't think we've played a single gig with any bands using an ampless setup so usually everything is mic'd up ready to go, just a case of switching heads and breakables etc. I'd imagine switching between a stage fully configured for full backline to ampless then back again would be a bit of a nightmare, especially with quick changeovers. 

My main ampless gigs have been on the tech side so this is one I can actually field. Short answer is it barely takes up any time - I just go around and replace the mics with a DI using the same XLR to stage-box and then FOH recall the appropriate scene for levels. You can even leave the amps in place if you're using the amps later and don't want to mess around with mic positions. Ideally given a headline scenario (which it usually is) and freedom to make the other bands work to OUR spec then our DIs have their own stereo XLRs at the front of the stage so I only have to run the minimum of cabling, but we can work with either.

[MrDinsdale]

11 minutes ago, borntohang said:

My main ampless gigs have been on the tech side so this is one I can actually field. Short answer is it barely takes up any time - I just go around and replace the mics with a DI using the same XLR to stage-box and then FOH recall the appropriate scene for levels. You can even leave the amps in place if you're using the amps later and don't want to mess around with mic positions. Ideally given a headline scenario (which it usually is) and freedom to make the other bands work to OUR spec then our DIs have their own stereo XLRs at the front of the stage so I only have to run the minimum of cabling, but we can work with either.

And do you have control of your own on-stage mix or do you leave that to the sound engineer?

 

Just curious as it's incredibly uncommon in the bands we play with. I know for a fact no one else in the band would have any interest in going ampless but interesting to know.

[borntohang]

6 minutes ago, MrDinsdale said:

And do you have control of your own on-stage mix or do you leave that to the sound engineer?

 

Just curious as it's incredibly uncommon in the bands we play with. I know for a fact no one else in the band would have any interest in going ampless but interesting to know.

We tour with a pre-rigged stage box, full mic setup, and a desk so all the house gets is our CAT5 cable and it's ready to go. Levels are set in pre-production and stay the same for the whole tour so mixes should be stable apart from accounting for mic position on drums. Monitors are on wireless feeds coming from stage box and FOH can control them for tweaks as needed - our backup is a couple of wired belt packs and long XLRs that I can hot swap out to replace any of the four main feeds in a disaster. I run from the fifth 'tech' mix which goes to FOH, Lights, and Backline (me) and just has the basics of guitar, click/cues, vocals, and talkback so I can listen for any issues; the other two are obviously in front of the PA so apart from click this is mostly for my benefit.

 

If the house engineer really doesn't want to use our desk for some reason (only been an issue once) then our FOH guy will run sound for the support that evening and they can sit out. We're lucky to have a good team and headliner leverage, but we've done plenty of festivals the same way and it seems increasingly common for them to leave desk space on the tower to run your own setup.

[BigRedX]

29 minutes ago, borntohang said:

My main ampless gigs have been on the tech side so this is one I can actually field. Short answer is it barely takes up any time - I just go around and replace the mics with a DI using the same XLR to stage-box and then FOH recall the appropriate scene for levels. You can even leave the amps in place if you're using the amps later and don't want to mess around with mic positions. Ideally given a headline scenario (which it usually is) and freedom to make the other bands work to OUR spec then our DIs have their own stereo XLRs at the front of the stage so I only have to run the minimum of cabling, but we can work with either.

 

One of my bands has gone entirely amp-less (although we're no on IEMs yet). We simply turn up, and set up in front of whatever backline is already on stage an ignore it. We have our own DI boxes for everything should the venue be short of them oversize the sound engineer can decide whether to use our's or his own.

 

When we finally do go for IEMs the plan is to get something like a Behringer X18 rack and run everything through that. We'll do our own IEM mixes from that and then supply FoH with either a full stereo mix or individual instruments with the relative volumes already set so they can just EQ the instruments separately to suit the PA and venue.

[borntohang]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

One of my bands has gone entirely amp-less (although we're no on IEMs yet). We simply turn up, and set up in front of whatever backline is already on stage an ignore it. We have our own DI boxes for everything should the venue be short of them oversize the sound engineer can decide whether to use our's or his own.

 

When we finally do go for IEMs the plan is to get something like a Behringer X18 rack and run everything through that. We'll do our own IEM mixes from that and then supply FoH with either a full stereo mix or individual instruments with the relative volumes already set so they can just EQ the instruments separately to suit the PA and venue.

Effectively what we're doing, yeah. We take our own DIs for the same reason we take our own mics - not reliant on whatever the venue happens to have. Plus a bunch of those are stereo or particular set units for things like the acoustic.

[MrDinsdale]

3 hours ago, borntohang said:

We tour with a pre-rigged stage box, full mic setup, and a desk so all the house gets is our CAT5 cable and it's ready to go. Levels are set in pre-production and stay the same for the whole tour so mixes should be stable apart from accounting for mic position on drums. Monitors are on wireless feeds coming from stage box and FOH can control them for tweaks as needed - our backup is a couple of wired belt packs and long XLRs that I can hot swap out to replace any of the four main feeds in a disaster. I run from the fifth 'tech' mix which goes to FOH, Lights, and Backline (me) and just has the basics of guitar, click/cues, vocals, and talkback so I can listen for any issues; the other two are obviously in front of the PA so apart from click this is mostly for my benefit.

 

If the house engineer really doesn't want to use our desk for some reason (only been an issue once) then our FOH guy will run sound for the support that evening and they can sit out. We're lucky to have a good team and headliner leverage, but we've done plenty of festivals the same way and it seems increasingly common for them to leave desk space on the tower to run your own setup.

Super informative! I can't imagine we'll ever go ampless in the near future tbh although I can see the perks and why people do. 

[diskwave]

Its not until you have ear probs that the idea of squirting anything direct plus the ambient noise on the stage if one should fall out, is enough to make you shudder. I'd actually like to know what the injury rate is from them now they've been around a while.....Prolonged use of headphones for eg can cause major ear probs in the long run cause its way too easy to crank the volume which feels extremely soft and spacious but which is actually still high volume.

[Elfrasho]

I will happily never use an amp again. The enjoyment of a gig can often be ruined purely on the basis that I need to somehow transport a bass rig to the venue and back home. All for the sake of a bit of stage sound. I'm in the dep scene and pretty much every band I'm out with run IEMs. Not only does it make monitoring much more exact, it just makes the band sound better out front. Everyone wins. Ok,. you might lose a tiny bit of feel, and it can sound a bit clinical, but I'll happily give that up for the massive benefits. 

 

 

[tauzero]

On 19/05/2023 at 17:28, Frank Blank said:

 

All the rage in the 70s (so I'm told) very popular on the Norfolk Broads in case your outboard conked out.

 

Something to keep you occupied while awaiting rescue?

[silverfoxnik]

On 23/05/2023 at 03:44, joel406 said:

Nice.

 

Very subjective and not what everyone else experiences. The QC is definitely the future. Safer. More adaptive. As a bass player this is even more so. And having to move your amps into another part of the venue shows how toxic onstage noise truly is. But thanks for proving my point even if you weren't trying. After the last 3 days of gigs, we are all just a little bit more in love with our QCs and IEMs. And after seeing this I'm so glad we ditched our amps. Maybe the guys in the video will learn to use their QCs one day and get the sound they are after. It certainly does for us.

I think that's it - this whole topic of discussion, like so many here on Basschat, is very subjective. 

 

We each have our own tastes, preferences and real-world band/rehearsals/recording /gigging situations to navigate. 

 

If you're happy using amps and old school PA set ups with monitors - great. 

 

If you're happy with amp modelling and IEMs - great. 

 

It's not a contest IMHO, or it shouldn't be. 

 

The important thing for me is that, as musicians, we can each get out there and make music to our hearts content on a regular basis, whatever way we choose to do that. And if you're lucky enough to have that going on in your life, long may that continue...

 

Going back to the issue of subjectivity, we had a band using amp modelling & IEMs play at my Charity's Gala Ball in March. They had a great attitude, easy load-in and load-out, nice stage set up and they played/sounded great. In fact, the bass player had a really good sound through the PA. 

 

Having said all that, to my ears at least, the overall sound and vibe was a bit tame and a bit sterile.

 

Did the audience notice or care?  No, I dont think so.

 

They were just happy to have some music to dance to...

 

In fact, when the band stopped, the audience continued dancing to a playlist for about another half an hour and the dance floor got busier. 

 

As I think @BigRedX alluded to earlier, most audiences at gigs don't notice this stuff and they don't care about it either; it's only us musos who have the time or bother to talk about this sort of stuff. 

 

And knowing Basschat as I do, I expect that we'll still be doing that in another 20 years or so, by which time the songs will all be written by AI/Chat GPT and the music and sound will be effortlessly and artificially generated out of the backside of a Robot that look like the silicon lovechild of Lewis Capaldi and Lizzo.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by silverfoxnik
Typo

[neepheid]

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.  Opinions aren't facts though - sometimes people forget that, and when they're called on it and the double down - that's just a recipe for disaster.  I'm sure I've fallen into that preciousness trap myself, I apologise for all the times I have and will try to do better.

[warwickhunt]

3 minutes ago, neepheid said:

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.  Opinions aren't facts though - sometimes people forget that, and when they're called on it and the double down - that's just a recipe for disaster.  I'm sure I've fallen into that preciousness trap myself, I apologise for all the times I have and will try to do better.

 

“You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

― Daniel Patrick Moynihan

 

Sadly a few (inc the OP) seem to think that if they shout their opinion loud enough it will become entrenched as fact.  

[Muzz]

I think there's a fine line between the evangelical zeal of discovering something that works very well in a particular environment, and the insistence that this is THE BEST WAY...I'm in three bands, one has embraced all/some of the no/minimal backline/DI/IEMs route, one had a go but it the IEMs didn't really stick (there again, that band doesn't rehearse, so trying to get it all running during a soundcheck was, erm, fraught at best), but the third is a startup, and from the word Go it's all going to be DI'd (triggered kit) and processed - luckily, the drummer is also a talented techie/producer, so he's driving all that.

 

As I've said previously, I haven't used a big (i.e. head and cab(s), bass sound onstage) rig for a good while now, and I can't really see me going back, but those standbys YMMV and IMHO always apply...

 

On the in-ear volume thing, yes, headphones can can cause significant damage if overloud, but judicious use of the Volume knob is at least possible...not so much when you're standing next to cymbals and big rigs; as a long-term Tinnitus Boy, I'm very aware of my personal volume levels (I wear ACS attenuators when I'm going to other band gigs), and the Brave New World offers opportunities which weren't previously possible at the levels (SWIDT?) a lot of us are playing at i.e. pubs, clubs, functions, etc...

[JohnDaBass]

All great stuff Guys but just watched a couple of hours of the Jeff Beck tribute concert on UThube, and not an IEM in sight. 

Lots of titchy, tiny (Fender) combos miked and played at comfortable levels. Lovely sounding Laney Digbeth amp & 4x10 or 4x8 cab.

Am I missing something 😒

[borntohang]

Honestly if I was running tech for a circus of likely half-deaf dudes playing a song or two each while trying to maintain some kind of flow to the schedule then I'd probably just chuck a couple of wedges down too. I wouldn't take my IEMs to open mics for the same reason...

 

RAH is definitely about the biggest size I'd be comfortable with stage monitoring and no isolation at though - I bet the acoustics are good in there but you'd still be fighting the back splash.