Help & Advice - Roland/Boss COSM & MIDI Synth experience

[Richard R]

Hi all,

 

I fancy building a bass, and want it to be something quite different to what I have. I'm toying with the idea of a kit bass but installing a 13-pin MIDI Pickup.   Something like this https://kitbuiltguitars.co.uk/guitar-kits/5-string-bass-sr-style-diy-build-your-own-bass-guitar-kit-kbg-5sr-a/,  but with the bridge pickup removed and the Roland divided pickup installed permanently.   https://www.roland.com/uk/products/gk-kit-bg3/ 

Obviously this won't make any noise without a guitar or bass synth attached, and this is where I need some advice. 

 

Use case:  I play in church, so I don't need anything more than the very capable bass I have. But I would like to be able to change the bass sound (fretless, DB etc) for some songs, play synth bass lines occasionally, and have some sampled instruments and other stuff available for special occasions. And being completely honest, I want to building a bass that is definitely something different, but it does then need to be usable and get used.

 

I love the idea of being able to play realistic MIDI sampled sounds from my bass (bagpipes!) , which leads me to something like a Roland MIDI synth (GR-55K, or a GR-30 ?  The latter appeals, mainly as it's cheaper 2nd hand, but the former has (apparently) much better sounds and tracking.  Are these sensible options?

Everyone says that the latency for MIDI on notes below about A is too long. Physics says that the open E 44.1Hz gives a cycle time of 22ms, so if you need two cycles to ensure accurate triggering then that implies 44ms, which I can imagine is a bit long. I play 5 string, so I accept that the low-B is out for MIDI. What have people found to be the lowest notes that play acceptably? 

COSM - if I understand this correctly this is digitally augmented analogue synth, so doesn't have triggering issues and so can work on low strings. Because it's modelling, not sampled, then the modelled basses and sounds will be pretty good and playable, as will anything "synthy". But trying to make an emulation of something real (horns) might be hard and will probably still sound synthetic compared to a MIDI sample.  More Synthy things would be the V-Bass series., but they seem to be very complex. Any opinions of these things? 

 

Does anyone have any experience of any of the Roland/Boss synth range and can give me some pointers? I'm very happy to purchase older kit, and to take advice on how to get the best out of these sorts of things.  I'm not completely committed to this build yet, but as the synth will be a significant part of the cost I want to have a good idea of what would suit my (ill-defined) needs.

 

Many thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

[Waddo Soqable]

I know absolutely jack about any of the tech, but that sounds a great idea, love it 👍

[BigRedX]

Pitch to voltage or MIDI is a complete non-starter for the bass guitar for exactly the reasons your have described. The very best system when coupled with a suitably clean sound and playing technique could at best detect the pitch from one and half cycles, but that is a best case situation only and a lot of the time it is much, much worse. On top of that delay you need to factor in the additional processing time time required to generate and transmit the MIDI information to whatever synths or samplers you want to use if the sounds (if there are any) built in the converter are not suitable.

 

There are systems that get around this by using fret sensing to deprive pitch information such as the Peavey MIDI Bass and it's most recent incarnation in the Industrial Radio systems, but they all require you to use the bass guitar they are built into, and from recent reports on here Industrial Radio are having problems fulfilling orders. 

 

The Roland V-System is, as you have identified the one to be looking at and hopefully @ped who is a long time user will be along shortly to tell you everything you need to know about it.

 

One final point, the Roland pickup needs to be installed right next to the bridge for decent results whether you are using the V-System or attempting pitch to MIDI conversion, so fitting it instead of a conventional bridge pickup won't put it in the optimum location. You may well be better off looking at something like the Graphtec Ghost system which replaces the bridge with a piezo equipped one to drive the V-system.

[Richard R]

Thanks @BigRedX.

I wasn't planning to put the hex pickup where the bridge pickup would be, but the recommended 15mm away. The reason for removing the bridge pickup would be entirely cosmetic and removal of surplus knobs on the guitar body. 🙂

 

I've never heard of the Graphite Ghost, so off to the internet I go!

[Richard R]

Given that I'm a complete newbie to this, rather than go straight in with a build getting my head round the synth part seems the best place to start.

Does this represent good value?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304798339655?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338365712&toolid=20006&customid=EB129124807&

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by Richard R
Typo

[Franticsmurf]

12 hours ago, Richard R said:

Does this represent good value?

I paid around £350 for mine last year from the Bass Gallery (there's one for sale there now) with a flight case but without the GK2B pick-up, which was another £100 or so new. So on the face of it, that looks a good price. My cynical and suspicious mind would be asking why is it such a good price, but that's just me.

 

I use mine occasionally with a 4 string bass and I find the COSM tracking on all frets is very good. I also use it with my Guitarbass VI with a GK3 pick-up (originally intended for guitar) as you can set the unit up to receive from 4, 5 or 6 strings.

[NoirBass]

Hi Richard R,

 

I'm a longtime user of various GK stuff with bass and as BigRedX has said it has its limitations. Hardware like the VB-99/SY1K and GR-55 (and probably the original VBass - although I've never tried it!) have staggering potential though.

 

Please feel free to ask any questions here, but I'd urge you to get on this forum and start reading:

 

https://www.vguitarforums.com/smf/index.php

 

Good luck!

[Woodinblack]

Sorry - missed this before - I think it has a lot of potential. As mentioned the pitch to frequency is a bit slow and not great for stuff with attack (although can be used fine if you prepare for it and play for its latency), the stuff the V synths do (and the new boss stuff) which uses the actual signal and processes it works fine as it is using the actual signal (same as the current boss pedals but with the whole set of strings). Ironically the original roland system used this too to produce its best sounds.

 

Also don't ignore the Variax stuff that already does this in one instrument

[Richard R]

Thanks everyone. That Vbass forum is really helpful,  @NoirBass. 

I'll read up there before I make a decision.  And probably miss out on a good deal while doing so knowing my luck.

I'll report back when/if there's any progress. 

[Richard R]

Project now on hold. I was offered 2 face value tickets to see Bruce Springsteen at Villa Park this Friday, so that consumed the budget.

😅

 

 

[NoirBass]

3 hours ago, Richard R said:

Project now on hold. I was offered 2 face value tickets to see Bruce Springsteen at Villa Park this Friday, so that consumed the budget.

😅

 

 

Shame, there’s even a very reasonable Vbass in the sale section at the moment. Enjoy the Boss!

[Richard R]

Project back in action as I sold a couple of bits of kit and so was able to purchase that V-bass and GK2-B that was on e-Bay. Coupled with a bass that was free on the recycling thread I now have this setup, for essentially zero cost:

 

 

 

 

@Franticsmurf - it arrived complete, extremely well packed, and it all works 🙂 The floor unit is big - 48cmx30cm and built like a tank!

 

 

There are some decent sounds in there, as well as some terrible noises. The "MG-Bass" sound is rather nice, as is the "Fretless 8 string" emulation. I'm not sure if it's an accurate emulation of a fretless 8-string (or even if such a thing exists) but it sounds nice.  I'm starting to experiment a bit with editing, but mainly just trying to play cleanly so the more synth-y sounds work OK. 

@ped - I saw that you sold a V-bass previously and in the advert it said you had set up custom patches. Is there any sort of desktop editor for the V-Bass, or did that only come in with the VB-99? I've not found any patch libraries either, I suspect that is just the age of the unit.

@NoirBass - I've joined the V-guitar forum, though most people there seem to have moved to the later VB-99. 

 

 

 

Thanks to everyone for all the advice - really appreciated.  If anyone is interested then let me know on here and I'll post a few clips of the more interesting sounds.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ped]

Fantastic! That looks great. Bringing back good memories of the original Vbass. No, I don't think there was a desktop editor for that model. Honestly I don't use the VB99 one either; I prefer to do it all on the unit which by design makes adjustments easy and intuitive. I don't think there's a way to exchange patches except via MIDI or some such - in the past I've just shared pictures of the settings on the screen!

 

The Vguitar forums are great, lots of super knowledgable people there. You'll probably see some posts from me on there, same username I think.

[Waddo Soqable]

Certainly be v. interesting to hear some of the sounds it makes 👍

[Richard R]

I'll try to record some this week. If not then it will be in a couple of weeks time as I know I won't have time next week.

[Franticsmurf]

14 hours ago, Richard R said:

it arrived complete, extremely well packed, and it all works 🙂 The floor unit is big - 48cmx30cm and built like a tank!

That's great - I probably miss out on such bargains being too cynical. 😄

 

The floor unit is a bit big - you're going to struggle to fit it on a commercially available pedalboard 🤣. I've got some time on my hands as we have a break in rehearsing and gigging so I'm going to start playing around with mine again. I can't comment on a lot of the emulations as I don't own the original instruments, but the Ricky sound is close to what I've been after and the other emulations are good sounds regardless of whether they're accurate. Some of the synth patches are nice, too.  

[BigRedX]

Surely the whole point of a device like that is that it is its own pedal board?

[Franticsmurf]

Yes, it is. Hence the little laughing emoji after my comment.

[Woodinblack]

The VG system in that case was designed due to Rolands dislike of people who didn't wear shoes. The edges are purposely sharpened for that reason!

[BigRedX]

1 hour ago, Franticsmurf said:

Yes, it is. Hence the little laughing emoji after my comment.

 

TBH that comment wouldn't be out of place for some of the bands we share the bill with. I can remember seeing one guitarist set up the largest pedal board flight case I have ever seen - it must have been at least 3 rows of pedals. And then brought out a second one almost as big. His pedals occupied the whole of the front of the stage. There was just enough room behind him for the drummer and his kit, and the bass player crammed into a corner.

[Franticsmurf]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

TBH that comment wouldn't be out of place for some of the bands we share the bill with. I can remember seeing one guitarist set up the largest pedal board flight case I have ever seen - it must have been at least 3 rows of pedals. And then brought out a second one almost as big. His pedals occupied the whole of the front of the stage. There was just enough room behind him for the drummer and his kit, and the bass player crammed into a corner.

Between you and me and while no one is listening, I brought out my VBass because the three piece I'm working on now is looking to do some more adventurous stuff and it would sit along side my normal board during the rehearsals and arrangements sessions. Ideally I would not have them both on stage but they may co-exist for a while until I get an idea of what I actually need to play the songs we decide on.

 

Incidentally, I played guitar in a duo and for several years I used the VG8 guitar version as my only effects. It was great as I could switch from electric to acoustic and the occasional strings. Hmmm, there's an idea for the bits of the set I play guitar on... 🤣

[Richard R]

Having played around with it last night, the biggest problem is neck dive on the bass. There isn't space for the hex pickup on my #1 bass, so I can't fit it there. I'll have to try another strap.

 

That aside: matching the volume on the different patches will take some time, and understanding the whole interaction between parameters is very confusing.  And the first patch I tried to make won't allow me to mix in the native bass sound.

Hours of fun to be had 🤣

[Richard R]

Out of time for sound clips. There are some sample demos on the Roland site

https://www.roland.com/uk/products/v-bass/